Thandeka Mfinyongo and Dr. Katharina Greven about indigenous Xhosa music
Abstract
- Abstract
- In this latest episode of the Cluster Conversations, artist fellow Thandeka Mfinyongo talks with her host Dr. Katharina Greven about her recent residency with the Cluster of Excellence in Bayreuth. During her stay, Thandeka Mfinyongo was working on her project “Ingoduko” which she considers a sort of homecoming and an appreciation of African music – her music encapsulates where it began and a nostalgia of home. It is a musical performance celebrating our culture and giving a voice to the Xhosa indigenous instruments, uhadi (gourd bow) and umrhubhe (mouth bow). While in Bayreuth she gave workshops and concerts to teach indigenous music to young people and anyone interested.
Description
- Transcript
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Speaker 1: Cluster Conversations, a podcast by Africa Multiple.
[music]
Speaker 1: Welcome to the latest episode of Cluster Conversations. I am Katharina Greven, the academic host of this brilliant musician Tandekam Fenyongo. Hello.
Speaker 2: Hi.
Speaker 1: How are you?
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 1: What did we just hear? For everybody who hasn't been at your concerts we did over the last four months, what did we just hear?
Speaker 2: You just heard the sound of Ohadi, which is a Xhosa instrument from South Africa. This particular one belongs to the Xhosa people. The song is called Uweini. Yeah, so this is what you just heard.
Speaker 1: And can you tell us what that instrument looks like, as we are in a podcast and nobody can see it?
Speaker 2: The instrument is made of one wood and one string and a calabash. So the calabash you put it against your chest when you play away and against your chest to get the overtones. And you use a stick to hit it where to get the, you know, whatever that you're playing. So you have a stick on your right hand, you have an instrument on your left hand. So you play it away and on your chest.
Speaker 1: And I mean, before we get into your whole journey as a musician, we are now at the end of your residency. Yes. You have been here for four months. What were your highlights?
Speaker 2: Wow, it's been great. When you say highlights, I feel like a traitor. Does it mean that the other one was higher than the other? I think everything was a highlight.
Speaker 1: They're all highlights. Just name them all.
Speaker 2: I think, I mean, from the very beginning going to the, because I brought the instruments with me, the material, but we didn't have the sticks for playing the instrument. So from going to the forest to collect the material for playing with the participants that I was playing to, that was really big for me. And to hear just how, you know, the instrument sounds with a different material. The making of the instrument, that process was really amazing. The workshop that we had with the participants, you know, that whole process was just another highlight for me. And another highlight was the participants learning how to play the instruments, learning my language. And yeah, and just watching all of that coming together and into having an exhibition. All of this process was a highlight. So I think it's hard to say which one was the highlight. So just that whole process has been really, really amazing for me. Making the instruments, playing the instruments, learning how to play the instrument, collecting the sticks to play and having a concert and exhibition. So yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, having these workshops, you also conduct workshops back at home with a different crowd, I would say. So what was the main difference or your interest, your initial interest actually to have workshops here as well and also this academic setting? And what was then the main difference for you now looking back? When did we have them? At the beginning of January in twenty twenty five. What was the main difference or what did you gain maybe from that experience here?
Speaker 2: I think, I mean, the one thing would be the language. Obviously, when I teach back home or this making, it's people who understand the language. And having to translate sometimes, you know, there were like difficulties sometimes on how to, how do I say this? How do, what do I mean by this song? You know, you have to bring in a whole story for people to understand because their language is different. But I think having people who were willing to learn was, is what helped me, you know, to be like, okay, we have this instrument from Southern Africa and then we have these kinds of people from this part of the world. How do we then bridge? And I think that process of making, touching the instrument was...
Speaker 1: storytelling in its own, I don't know, because there were a lot of questions and interactions between us. People had individual questions that they had, they wanted to understand about making of the instrument. So even though there was a language thing which was for me big, we still managed to bridge that gap through small conversations here and there with different people.
Speaker 2: I mean, I was one of the participants. So I, for me what was striking is also when we played the instrument for the first time and I mean you explained to us also the size of the calabash was then according to also the breast of the dominant female singers or players at that time and up to today, was also the resonance with the body. So the whole bodily experience of playing this instrument was quite crucial for me actually. Did you get any feedback from the other participants as well?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes. I mean, like you said, like when I explained the importance of all these aspects of the playing, people wanted to hear that sound. They could feel when they were not playing, not getting their vibrations or maybe the way they were putting it against their breasts, it was not coming out the way that the sound was explained to them by me. So there was that curiosity in wanting to, I don't only want to hear the string, I want to hear the overtones. Oh, ah, you know, when someone gets the overtones, the excitement of that. Oh, did you hear, did you hear? So there was that, all of these aspects of playing the bow were very important and very crucial and it was an exciting discovery for most of them, well, all of the participants when they could hear the strings, they could hear the overtones. Yeah, so.
Speaker 2: And did you ever play out of interest? Did you ever have a concert with participant also back home in South Africa?
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: Was that the first time?
Speaker 1: So this was the first time. Yes, this was the first time. I mean, we make instruments and then we test how to play and then that's that. To actually have like a performance like this or, you know, so it was, it never, it's either the time or I don't know, I don't know what it was, but we've never had, yeah.
Speaker 2: No, I mean, I also, for me what was also interesting is, I mean, it's a one-string instrument. In my very limited mind, I was like, okay, how much can you do with one string? But it's crazy how much you actually can, what kind of sounds you can produce. And then when I also saw your playing in the internet, you know, with these in the club, and then I saw you here just last week, twenty second of March, when we had the concert at the Piano Factory Steingräber. This experimental classical music. Then of course we had the concerts in Eberleba House and also in Nuremberg at Südpunkt. It's so versatile. I mean, you can just play it. I know it sounds a bit ridiculous when I say it, but you can play it everywhere. But it's so powerful at the same time.
Speaker 1: Yes. And I think for me, that is the one of the things that I'm curious about, how far can I stretch the instrument? And I was saying that to Koila on the twenty second of March. I mean, before the twenty second of March building up to that concert, that for me, I think part of wanting to preserve or archive the instrument is also to stretch them, to see how far they can go, how much they can take, where else can I play the instruments and the context of playing the instruments. So for me, it's that curiosity of really just wanting to see these two strings, what they can do. So yeah.
Speaker 2: And I mean, just talking about stretching it to all kinds of different musical experiences, what is the traditional setting of the uhadi? Can you tell me a bit about that?
Speaker 1: I mean, I wasn't there, but traditionally, from reading and hearing from people who played before, this instrument was played in the evenings after a long day's work. The married women would play it to put their children to sleep. I mean, speaking to, there's different ways that the women that I spoke to when I did my fieldwork, others would tell stories about, you know, when we didn't have food, our mother would play this until we forget and fall asleep. And it was, and then tomorrow was another day where, you know, she thinks of how am I going to feed these children. So for the mother, it would be a way to make the children forget.
Speaker 1: fall asleep. So for others, it was, you know, after a long day's storytelling, just playing this instrument to soothe the people, the children to go to bed. So that was the setting of the instrument, not necessarily performance. Of course, times have changed now. We weren't like you said, playing in the club. Now because we want to what is this, want to also benefit from it, you know, we want to make money from it while we are doing what we love. So we find ways to mic, to make sure that it's audible, even though it's also another challenge where, for example, if I'm playing with my band, the sound is going to be sucked to some extent because the band is bigger and fuller. So to some extent they'll hardly get sucked in anyway. So trying to find these ways of miking it, of making sure that the sound is audible.
Speaker 2: Okay. And how did you get to start playing the uhadi?
Speaker 1: I started at university actually. I studied at University of Cape Town to play. I had never played uhadi before. Yes. And I think it sucked me in, to be honest, because I got so curious.
Speaker 2: But wait, at the university, so you had a teacher specially to teach you that? So not only in theory but also practical level?
Speaker 1: That's why I also learned practical. Yes. So that was that for me. And also, I mean, in that time, it's not so long ago, but it's so long ago. This is twenty fourteen. So we always heard about these instruments dying, traditional instruments and all of that. And I think for me, that was the first thing that stuck to my mind in when we were in theory classes, when these instruments were being spoken about. And I think my curiosity started then because I don't want to lie, I also had some kind of resistance because not everybody was really playing or into this. Everybody was doing jazz or classical, you know, and I also wanted to be part of that. But something about hearing that the music is dying, I think for me was the call because out of nowhere, I was just curious to know everything and everyone who still plays it. I wanted to meet Madosini. I wanted to, you know, all of these things around these instruments. I was just curious about it.
Speaker 2: Can you say something about Madosini because you mentioned her quite a lot? And also, do you have in your own family people playing the uhadi?
Speaker 1: Madosini passed away in twenty twenty two, but she was one of the pioneers. She's known as the national treasure in South Africa because she, I mean, to her old age, she traveled all over the world playing these instruments. And even for her, when I have conversations, when she first started, she was like, why would you want to hear this? You know, she didn't understand why people wanted to hear this thing that we used to play growing up. But she's one of the people that pioneered. And for me, my journey, being able to meet her was such a huge opportunity and to actually, for her to call me her grandchild, you know, and to learn from her. And so she was a very important figure beyond academic setup, you know, we were at university and we're learning. And then now I have this well of knowledge which was Madosini and she would tell me stories. You come into her house and you say mulwane, which is greetings, hello. The first thing she does is take the uhadi and play for you before you say anything. Plays the uhadi and then we start having conversations. And then we developed a relationship from there. So she is that person. And at home, I did not know that someone played until I started playing later. My mother, she shared that my grandmother used to play one of the instruments that I play, which is the mouth bow, umkhope, which was really, for me, it was very important because again, who plays these instruments? Are these instruments still existing, you know, that kind of thing? But to know that there's someone who used to play, it felt good to know, to have that kind of resemblance, for lack of a better word, to someone that I've never met because I never met my maternal grandmother. But to hear that she used to play the instrument was so special for me. So yeah.
Speaker 2: You're only talking about saying that uhadi is an instrument played by women. Is that still so? And is that something that...
Speaker 1: is important for you. I can't put it in a better way right now.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 2: Well, things have changed for sure. But I think for me, there's something special about that because most—I'm not saying all of them—but most of the instruments that I've come across before, it was always men who play instrument and women sing, you know. So to have an instrument that is made and played by women historically even from old times, there's something special about that, you know. Of course, times have changed and I'm fine with it. But it will always be beautiful to know that this was a women instrument, for me personally, yeah.
Speaker 1: And are the players male players who play the uhadi? And I know about—we had one conversation during your residency here where another fellow was mentioning a male singer or uhadi player with the notion that he challenged the gender aspect. But you rejected that immediately because, I mean, we know there's an art history—they're picking up specific practice by women, take it, earn money, give no credit. So...
Speaker 2: Yes. For me, I respect to the person, you know, that he was talking about. But again, my personal views of it, leave it to be. Let us have our own thing as well, you know. Let's not take that part away, that this instrument—and it's something again, something rare—to have that kind of an instrument that is played by women. And yeah. So, of course, opinions are different and the way we view things are definitely different. I stand corrected, but I stand by loving the fact that this is—you know—it's a women instrument. There's something very important or unique about that for me personally, yes.
Speaker 1: And I mean, you talked about that you—I mean, and I also heard you play. I mean, we played together, let's be honest. You played and I played along. But are you also composing your own songs? And I mean by that, of course, the playing of the instrument, but also the words or the lyrics. And if so, and I know so, but what is it about? I mean, what are your topics you're trying to do while you're playing?
Speaker 2: Yes. I mean, for me, it's really—I think I am moved or convicted—I don't know what the right word is—by time, where I am in that moment, what is my state of being. And when I look at that and then I look at what the world is, what is happening. So it can be anything. I don't have a specific theme. But also that sense of commentary to social issues which still stays because when I was learning about uhadi, I learned that the women would socially comment through the songs that they composed. So there's always that aspect of social commentary in what is happening in the society, in what is happening in personal lives, you know. So it depends on where I am personally as an artist and how what the world looks like in that moment. That's how I compose my music. I don't use a score.
Speaker 1: A score?
Speaker 2: A score, like a music sheet. It's either words and/or the melody from the bow. Then I don't have lyrics and then later on find lyrics or the lyrics that I wrote three years ago, they make sense now this year. So that kind of composition. So that's how I compose.
Speaker 1: Okay. And I would be interested in the—because you're at the university, you're writing your PhD—and it seems to be a quite practical approach you're having. So you're actually learning the instrument, you're writing about it. How does this process work? And I also know, I mean, we've all been struggling of writing our theses. So I know you're also in the process of that. Did something change here for you?
Speaker 2: Yes. Especially, I mean, someone whom I am speaking to right now who's interviewing me spoke to me, Dr. Katharina, my host, you know, just this knowledge production, I think, as a method. Because I didn't want to include the instrument making in my—I didn't know how it would fit. And for me, in my head, I thought it's a different thing, you know, to—but really having these conversations with you and thinking outside of...
Speaker 1: because we're talking material, but we're also talking about bringing that what is this how do practical thing into academic space because there's storytelling, there's also bringing these instruments, these conversations and that exchange between the participants and it there's something that can be learned in that what is this as a knowledge production while I'm making those instruments. So I think I'm thinking about that more now than making of the instruments as knowledge production. Is that the thing that we spoke about?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, I mean, if we talk also about what the cluster stands for, I mean, it's really about what can we in a non-academic written word, whatever, what are different ways of knowledge production. And I mean, that's why I was so happy with the workshops because this is exactly it. It's practice. You work with the people. There is like a knowledge exchange and something new gets created and just to also acknowledge the fact that there's so much knowledge which is not transmitted via writing, for example. I mean, it's also old news. I mean, people have been doing that, but I think now at that time here at the cluster, it was wonderful that these workshops could actually happen here. And does that also, will you implement that in your writing?
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: Thank you. It's such a shame.
Speaker 1: How convicted now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's it's beautiful and it's your strength. You're bringing it with you.
Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Amazing. And can we just go back to the workshop one more time because I am also interested. Sorry, I'm interested in many things apparently. But it happened at the Eva Lechner house and I mean, I'm working also at the Eva Lechner house now for a long time. How did you see the space?
Speaker 1: I mean, thinking about the archive there, it felt, it fitted. It was fitting for me to actually have it in a space like that, that is very much creative. There's this music archive, you know. So it made sense to have the instruments, to make the instruments there in that kind of environment. Yeah, I just really enjoyed being able to interact with the space in that way, not to just come and make instrument, but also see what is there. And in the archive, for example, there was no uhadi. So...
Speaker 2: Now there is.
Speaker 1: Now there is. There will be an official handover. That's beautiful.
Speaker 2: Of course.
Speaker 1: So for me, it was really important to just leave that mark of okay, here the participants made the instruments and then they took them home, but there's also this archive at Eva Lechner House where the instrument is also now going to have a home. So yeah.
Speaker 2: No, I love this. And I mean, I love the whole residency and I'm also so happy and also thankful for everybody who was involved that it was such a success with the workshops, the concert in Nuremberg, the concert here in Bayreuth and then also at Steinway, the piano factory. So I'm very happy with that. So comes to my final question, what happens after this? I know it's like...
Speaker 1: I'll go home. Is that okay?
Speaker 2: Yes. You may. I will be a bit lonely, to be honest, but yes.
Speaker 1: Yes. So I go home and try and finish my PhD. And hopefully, I mean, this is my whole life's project, this preservation of instruments. So hopefully there'll be an opportunity to do it again, to do it somewhere because this is, it's so beautiful. Like it's so beautiful when I think about how this was an idea on paper. Yes, I've done it before back home, but it's like, and then to see it fully, it just, it's the most beautiful thing to see the work that we have done, all of us with the participants, with you, with the cluster, with, it's been beautiful, you know. So I'm really, really touched and encouraged to continue with the project because it's hopefully other people will pick up on it, not just the uhadi, but other instruments, you know, this idea of archiving and preservation of traditional instruments so that, I mean, they don't die. That's the whole point, is that we have them in the next fifty years and hopefully the radio can come to the table and play our music one day. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And we have it all luckily documented, the photos and videos and they're all available online. So that's beautiful. So thank you so much for your time and your stay here. I've learned a lot honestly and I will truly miss you.
Speaker 1: I will miss you too, for sure.
Speaker 2: Also thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: So much.
[music]
Speaker 1: Hello everyone, thank you for joining us today. We're going to discuss the upcoming quarterly review and go through some key performance indicators.Value Annotations
Origins & context
- Generated by
- Qwen3-Omni-30B-A3B-Instruct
People & roles
Origins & context
- Title
- Thandeka Mfinyongo and Dr. Katharina Greven about indigenous Xhosa music
- Language
- English
- Podcast series
-
Cluster Conversations
- Date
- March 31, 2025
Rights & access
- Extent
- 24 minutes, 37 seconds
Identifiers & sources
Further details
- Episode number
- 30
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