Prof. Dr. Rüdiger Seesemann and Dr. Habibat Oladosu-Uthman on identity politics in the various Houses of God in West Africa
Abstract
- Abstract
- In this episode of the Cluster Conversations, fellow Dr. Habibat Oladosu-Uthman talks with her host Prof. Dr. Rüdiger Seesemann about her project on identity politics in the various Houses of God in West Africa. The research specifically scrutinizes gender politics and dynamics among Vodun worshippers in Lome, Togo, and Sango worshippers in Yoruba land, Nigeria, vis a vis the practices in the Mosques amongst the Muslims.
Description
- Transcript
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Speaker 1: Cluster Conversations, a podcast by Africa Multiple.
Speaker 1: Welcome, very warm welcome to our listeners for the latest episode of the Cluster Conversations. My name is Rüdiger Seesemann. I am the Dean of the Africa Multiple Cluster of Excellence, but today I am here in my capacity as a scholar of Islamic Studies and as the academic host of Doctor Habibat Oladosu Osman from the University of Ibadan where she is an associate professor in the Department of Arabic and Islamic Studies. And we are going to have a conversation today about her fellow project and also about some broader aspects of questions pertaining to Islam and gender. I am very honored and pleased to have her here. Doctor Habibat Oladosu Osman holds a PhD from the prestigious ISTAC, that's the Institute of Islamic Thought and Civilizations at the International Islamic University of Malaysia in Kuala Lumpur. That thesis was on gender politics among Muslims in southwestern Nigeria. And it was eventually published also as a book, if I'm not mistaken. The title of the book is Muslim Women and the Politics of Emplacement: Re-reading Space, Sex and Gender, published in 2011 in Berlin by Lambert Academic Publishing. And apart from this book, Doctor Oladosu Osman is a speaker sought after by many audiences. She has a long record of speaking engagements and conference appearances and also publications, many of them revolving around the question of religion and gender, not just Islam and gender, and some of them also about sort of the hardcore topics of Islamic studies. In her master's thesis, she studied the notion of education in the works of Al-Ghazali, an important medieval scholar of Islam. And while she's done quite a few other things, very impressive CV. And I am, as I said, pleased and honored to be her host here in the Bayreuth Academy of Advanced African Studies. And we want to have a conversation about her fellow project and perhaps also some broader aspects regarding the study of gender and religion. So welcome to today's podcast, everyone, and a warm welcome to Doctor Oladosu Osman. Maybe the last thing I should say is the title of her fellow project. It is Gender Politics in the House of God, and it's a comparison between European religion and Islam, and she will tell us much more about it. So maybe I can start with the question, what do you mean by house of god? Do you conceive of this as a larger concept or can you tell us more about this notion?
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me. I am privileged to have you as my host and I thank you for that. Our listener, Gender Politics in the House of God. What I meant by house of God is where, wherever the name of God is mentioned. It now depends on your notion, your conception of God, whether as a supreme being or as a deity or whatever you conceive of him. So the house of God in this instance is anywhere the name of God is mentioned, the name of God is glorified, whether originary or not. It depends on your conception of God. That would be my answer for now, sir.
Speaker 1: And I take it that this is a broad concept that can be the house of many different gods. And I also like this comparative approach that you are taking and we might elucidate later on your insights from this comparison. But perhaps what I find most intriguing about your study is your empirical research among practitioners of Vodun and Sangho. Excuse my probably inaccurate pronunciation of the terms. But can you share some reflections about your empirical findings from the study of these religious rituals and practices, please?
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. Mentioning the house of God, the other time I said is wherever the name of God is glorified, is mentioned. Now, comparing Islam with traditional religions in West Africa, I particularly singled out Vodun and Sangho in West Africa to see how the name of God is being mentioned and how politics of gender is being played out in these houses. Among the Vodun, in fact, let me let me let me begin by saying that my motivation to study Vodun developed out of my curiosity while growing up in the streets of Lomé, Togo. As a child, whenever I saw a lady living out her breasts walking on the streets, I became curious. You know, I've been taught to be modest as a as a lady. Then I started asking questions. Since then, I've been asking questions. So I over the time developed to a kind of inquisitive inquisitiveness. Then that of Sangho too. I was raised among the Yoruba. And I saw how the the the the rituals are being uh the rituals within these Sangho courts, how it's being carried out, how the propitiations are made, the place of women among the courts. Then I became curious that why is there limitation, where are their limitations among these religions? How can a woman live out her breast to satisfy her god? Then how can a woman within the court of Sangho be limited to exert her potential just like our male counterparts? And if you look at Islam too, you see that there are many limitations towards women that are not guided by the text, that are not, you know, the reason for all this cannot be founded in the text. Then you'll be wondering why the limitations. So when this occasion came to me to apply for this fellowship, and I thought of yeah looking at these religions, that is the traditional religions in West Africa and Islam, comparing them, why are there limitations to women's spiritual developments? Why are there limitations? So that is why I singled out Vodun and Sangho. And if you permit me, Sangho was a deity and still a deity. Vodun is a general term for deities and divinities among the Ewe speakers of Togo. So it can come in form of a Sangho, it can come in form of Ogun, the god of iron, can come in form of anything. Can come in form of, in fact, it can come in form of god of trees, just divinities. But it is a kind of ancestral belief. Among the Yoruba, we have Egungun. Among the Ewe speakers too, they have Egungun. They call them Vodun too. It depends. They have many types of Vodun. So but then within the cosmologies of these deities, you have a male and a female. A male can be a chief priest. A female can also be a chief priest, but with limitations. These are divinities that relate between, these are relationships between the dead and the living. So they believe that there must be mutual connection between the divinities and the adherents, those who worship them, those who sought their help, those who consult them. And in these courts, the Sangho and Vodun, I mentioned that the Vodun too can come in form of a Sangho.
Speaker 1: But within these courts, you find out that men exert their power to any lengths. Women do have many limitations. You know, you have to, for your rituals to be acceptable to the deity, for a woman among the vodun, you have to live out your breast, you have to walk in the streets half naked. Among the sangu worshippers, you can wield many influences, but you have limitation of acting like sangu, just like a man can act. A man can impersonate sangu. Sangu is no more here. Is in occultation or is hidden because they didn't believe he died because they mentioned he entered the heart. And he told his adherents to seek his support, his help anytime they need him. So, and I went to the shrine, I saw the rope. They said the rope which with which he entered the heart. So I saw the remnants of the rope. So that is why I said he is in occultation or maybe he is in hiding. Well, I don't know. It depends on what they want to say about that. But then, they go to that shrine to seek the help of sangu. A woman can also go to the shrine to seek the help of sangu and solicit on behalf of the adherents. But then, men do impersonate sangu as if sangu is still here by acting exactly like sangu, spitting fire, you know, controlling thunderstorm and doing many things, performing miracles. A woman can only do that if only she agrees to change her identity by becoming a man, by acting like a man, by speaking like a man, by dressing like a man. Why should she change her identity? These are my curiosities.
Speaker 2: Mhm. So that's really, really fascinating and I wish the listeners could see some of the images. Perhaps you have to take a look at the project on the website, which we will hopefully show soon. My larger thoughts pertain now to, as I said earlier, to this comparative dimension. And obviously, I mean, there is kind of a contrast between the way women dress in vodun, as you just illustrated, compared to Islam, which has a rather strict dress code for women who are supposed to hide many parts of their bodies when they go out. But beyond that, can you share your reflections on the comparison between this kind of Yoruba religion and worship on the one hand and Islam on the other? How about the position of women in the houses of the respective gods?
Speaker 1: Yeah. Thank you very much. So the position of women in the various houses of God has to do with limitations, silencing, muting. In other words, there is a limit to which a woman can go in the various houses of God. Let me start with Islam. Among the Muslims, a Muslim woman cannot, by rule, lead prayer in the mosque when men are there. She can only lead prayers within the corner of women where women are, where our gender reside within the mosque, if there are spaces at all. Because among traditional mosques in West Africa, there are no places for women to even worship. There are no places for women to. So that exclusion alone speaks volumes. Why are there no spaces for women to worship in the house of God when the Prophet of Islam mentioned that do not stop the female servant of Allah from entering the house of Allah. He mentioned in one of his sayings. Why the exclusion? Why the limitation? Why not?
Speaker 1: Then among the voodoo and uh the the sangu worshipper, I mentioned that they they have influences there there are propitiations and sacrifices that that cannot be made without the presence of women. But yet, you feel, in fact, I was taught by one of the chief priests in Lome that why do you why are you concerned about women's place, women's place? A woman worshipped the lord of her husband. A woman worshipped the lord of her husband. And so what's what's what if the lord of my husband is not okay with what I stand for with my worldview? What's the lord of my husband? What if the lord of my husband relegates me to the background? What if the lord of my husband do not see me as as a human being, as as as a person, as an individual? Why can't I stand up and discover my lord myself? So that then he said, no, no, no, the position of a woman within the courts of voodoo, that is is is lesser than that of a man. They are not the same thing because man is much more importance than a woman. Then when I asked the sangoma priest, why should a woman change our identity because she wants to impersonate sangoma? He said, yeah, she just has to do that because sangoma was a man. And then I say, then why are we saying we are equal in the same courts? They could not answer. Why the politics is being played how, is being played out. They could not answer. They are like, that is the way we met our forefathers doing it. In other words, it's just the authority of man that has been put in place over over over the time that has not been broken by any system, by any by by by by by any uh yeah, by any system, by by any culture, by by any tradition. Is just there. And we we I must say that since we are the makers of culture and we are the makers of tradition, we try as much men especially try as much as possible to uphold this so that so as to establish the authority of men all the time.
Speaker 2: So it sounds to me as if God is a patriarch in uh in all these religious traditions. Or why why do you think this kind of gender politics plays out in that manner where women are clearly at a disadvantage? Is it uh God's fault or is it uh the fault of human beings? Is God a patriarch?
Speaker 1: Well, I wouldn't say God is a patriarch because because if I say that, and I wouldn't say is a matriarch because if I say that, I am kind of doing anthropomorphising, you know, you know, trying to see God in the image of man. And he isn't like that. Whatever you think of God, he is beyond that. And as a Muslim, he is neither a male nor a female. But within his essence, he is God and he used the pronoun he for himself just for our understanding. It's just for our understanding. He is not a patriarch because he well everything he has done in the texts, in the in the in the scriptures, he has he has he has done everything with justice. That is, you know, anything that he does for a female, he does that so that it will satisfy her physiological makeup, not to relegate her. So the what we see in our society is is is the handwork of man. Zuhar al fasad fil barri wal barr bima kasabat haydinas. You see corruption on the land, on the oceans everywhere bima kasabat haydinas because of what the hands of men have wrought. This has to do with interpretation of the texts.
Speaker 1: Is because men, the majority of men are the producers of knowledge. They are in charge of everything. So they interpret the text, they interpret everything to suit their purposes. That is what I would say. God is not a patriarch and is neither a macho.
Speaker 2: Mhm. So uh, it seems to me that you hold the position that at least in Islam, gender roles are complementary. They complement each other. Of course there's also criticism that women are second-class citizens in Islam. You're aware of that. But you would rather connect this with male interpretation of Islamic religion rather than the way the Islamic way of life is laid out in the Quran and in the practice of the Prophet Muhammad. Is that right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is that is exactly what I'm saying. Islam is in no way, it does not place women as a second class citizen. That is not Islam. Whatever you see now everywhere you go within the Muslim community is the handiwork of men. It is not Islam because the Qur'an states that إِنَّ الْمُسْلِمِينَ وَالْمُسْلِمَاتِ وَالْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَالْمُؤْمِنَاتِ وَالْقَانِتِينَ وَالْقَانِتَاتِ. You know, Allah stated all these, all the characteristics, the Muslim male, the Muslim female, the believer male, the believer female. Then at the end of that ayah, God now says عَادَ اللَّهُ لَهُمْ مَغْفِرَةً وَحَجْرًا نَعِيمًا. That Allah has promised a great reward for all of this, for all of them and forgiveness for a female and a male that follows the instructions of Allah. So if Allah said that, so where is the subordination coming from? If not from the interpreters of the text. So a woman is not subordinate, but then in Islam there is room for, because if you are in a vehicle now, there must be a driver. There cannot be two drivers in a single vehicle. If there are two drivers, there will be chaos, there will be problem. And that is the recognition of a leader and a follower. And following does not subject a woman to servitude, to subjugation, to a second class citizen. No. It's just for harmony, complimentary. I am a woman. I have my physiology. I possess the womb you do not have. I can carry pregnancy, you cannot carry pregnancy. That is what we meant by complimentary rules in Islam. And they are all well-defined. And it does not subject a woman to a second class citizen. And the concept of hijab too, dressing, you know, covering up yourself, is to honour women. Because before Islam, women were in, women were openly, you know, dressing like, you know, like animals, so to say. You know, opening their bodies. In the decadent Arab society, the women would come out dancing in nudity in front of nobles of Mecca. That is, you know, and but the nobles among the women, amongst the Arabs then, did dress to cover themselves up. So if Islam says we should dress up, it's about, you know, honour, liberation, you know, bringing equality amongst the female gender. That is, the freeborn and the slaves should dress as honourable women.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So let me come back to your earlier metaphor of one driver and a leader and a follower. You've also expressed some very pronounced criticism of the way Muslim men act as leaders. So isn't it that there seems to be some imperfection in the performance of leadership roles?
Speaker 1: Of course there must be because they are human. We are human too. There must be imperfections because some of the time when they want to exert that power of leadership, they become lords. They turn themselves to lords. Sit down there.
Speaker 1: You don't have voice. You must not say this. You must not go there. You must not leave your house. You must not do this. You must not do that. And that is not how to go about it. Is about consultation. It should be about consultation because that is what the Quran says. That consult among yourself to arrive at answers. But most of the time men don't consult.
Speaker 2: So it would be uh it would be upon women in the house of Allah, that is in the house of Islam, to make sure the man abide by this principle of consultation and shared leadership.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very it's very it's very very important because that that is where peace lies. That is where Islam is projected as egalitarian way of life.
Speaker 2: And and do you see uh a similar constellation in the case of Yoruba religion? Is there also something women could do to improve their position in these communities and rituals?
Speaker 1: Well, that is where the problem lies. You know, what did the most funniest aspect of this thing is that women are now the custodian of this of this culture. Women are, you know, we are the closer closest to the children. We are the one teaching them as a woman, as a Yoruba woman, this is how to do, this is how to comport yourself, this is how you can sit. This is, you know, women are the custodian of this of these problems too. So how do we change it? We change it by you know continuous advocacy and education and awareness. It's not by fighting. We are not fighting. And we are not agitating for. What we are saying is let what is right be what is right and what is wrong remain what is wrong. Let the world know the truths about where our God has placed us. Our God has not placed us as a second class citizen. Because in the reckoning of the Lord, you are equal. You may not be the same because our physiologies are not the same. You know, we may you you are not the same, but you are equal. In terms of spirituality, spiritual development and to in terms of uh the closeness, the interaction between you and your Lord.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so perhaps you can conclude this podcast with a few reflections on from you about the theoretical implications all this has for the study of gender and religion. Where do you see the most important insights for on the theoretical level?
Speaker 1: Yeah, what what I see as most important is that over the years, over the time scholars have not paid attention to intersection between religions in West Africa. They have, you know, some of the times you find them discussing a single religion. Yeah, so scholarly works are no more they are they are in reality for like comparative studies like this project is how to to to do is is in reality. Because uh I have like a I have many scholars who have discussed about the place of women in Christianity, the place of women in traditional religion in west in in among the Yoruba and in West Africa. The particular one that strike my attention is that of Oyeronke Olademo who looked at gender in Yoruba oral tradition. And she sees gender relation within the Yoruba oral tradition as a binary. That is, they are complementary. If you cannot if we do not see a particular person known as osogbo, we cannot make sacrifice. In other words, if we cannot if if without the presence of a woman, there can be acceptable sacrifice. But then...
Speaker 1: If this is the case, where are these limitations coming from? And that is why I see it as very important that this work, this project, is so significant by through its comparative studies of what is obtainable among the traditional religion practitioners and what is obtainable among the Muslims who, by extension, cannot have not over the years seen reason in appointing a woman as a qadi in a sharia court or an hisba in West Africa.
Speaker 2: Right. So yeah, thank you so much. This is fascinating material and really, really pertinent questions. And I think these questions will remain with us for a long time to come because wherever you look in religious contexts, I think these questions of gender roles and the participation of women is really pertinent. So thank you so much for sharing your insights with us and thanks to everyone who listened in. I hope you will remain with Cluster Conversations and I wish you Dr. Oladotun Osman a successful conclusion of your fellow project.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.
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- Title
- Prof. Dr. Rüdiger Seesemann and Dr. Habibat Oladosu-Uthman on identity politics in the various Houses of God in West Africa
- Language
- English
- Podcast series
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Cluster Conversations
- Date
- August 2, 2024
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- 30 minutes, 55 seconds
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- 25
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