Prof. Dr. Ute Fendler and Cluster fellow Alexandre Vieira on the African diasporic influence on Brazilian culture
Abstract
- Abstract
- In this episode, Cluster fellow Alexandre Vieira talks with his host Ute Fendler about the African influence on Brazilian music in general and his music in particular. For videos on the mentioned concerts please visit: Concert „Transoceanic Encounters" and Transoceanic Musical Lectures.
Description
- Transcript
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[Segment 1/2 | 00:00:00–00:20:00]
[00:00:00] Speaker 1: [music] Cluster Conversations, a podcast by Africa Multiple.
[00:00:18] Speaker 2: Good afternoon, Alexandre Vieira. These are the conversations in the context of Africa Multiple Cluster of Excellence. And I'm very happy that you are with us in Bayreuth for a couple of months already. And I would like to ask you to introduce yourself and also talk about your research project.
[00:00:43] Speaker 3: Okay. I'm Alexandre Vieira, and I'm a musician from Salvador. I play the bass and I also sing. And my project is about this connection, about singing and playing. The name of the project is "The Rhythmic and Melodic Conundrum of African Diaspora Music," which is based on this inherent connection and creativity process. And, well, it's been a great time here, performing and researching, having beautiful insights coming from the exchange with the other fellows, and, well.
[00:01:25] Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe we can go a little bit more into your into your research. I mean, you have presented it. You also gave some some presentations and even concerts here in in Bayreuth. So, we were really very lucky having you with us for a couple of months. Maybe you could give us a little bit more of context where where you're coming from and where your musical, let's say, your knowledge, your practice comes from.
[00:01:52] Speaker 3: Okay. I come from Salvador, Bahia, but I was born in Maranhão, in the upper part of the northeast of Brazil. My father is from Bahia, from Santo Amaro. And when I was eight, about to get nine years old, I went to Salvador. We moved. And I started my musical life very early in my childhood. When I was about five, six, I don't know, really. I started watching my sister playing the guitar. She learned it from my father, and I learned from her, watching her playing. And that's where everything started. We were listening to long-play albums, bossa nova, samba, music from Bahia, but also Beatles and some rock and roll from Brazil. And we were very excited about music all the time. We were always playing, always singing. And we had a group with the family. Me, my brother, and my sister, we were singing, and my father playing the guitar. So, we have made a couple of concerts in Maranhão. And when we moved to Bahia, we kept making these concerts and presentations. When I was 10, I went to a school that had a music program. So, I started learning music more formal, like learning how to read music, how to write music, and how to play. And then I turned—I was playing the guitar, and then I started playing the bass and singing. So, I started my my process of combining the bass with the voice since childhood, when I was about 11 years old. And, well, I kept in this move, studying music, practicing bass, and when I was 15, I started getting interested in jazz music. And I was also, at the same time, starting to perform with bands out of my family. So, I had the opportunity to play with little groups. And then, when I was getting more dedicated and more professional, I started to play professionally, really, when I was about 15, 16 years old. And I started playing professionally, and I was involved in different kinds of works, like different genres, different artists from Bahia, from Salvador, playing the electric bass. And then, some years later, like four years later, when I was 19, 18, 19, I began the college, and I started playing the double bass. And then I translated everything I had before from the electric bass, from the guitar, from my knowledge of singing, I translated to the double bass, and I started the same process of using the voice as a tool for for learning, for connecting with the music in a deeper sense, because I've always felt that when I was singing, I I had a kind of musical communication that was more intense than when I was just playing. So, this research comes from all this process of evolving and, well.
[00:05:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe also for our listeners who might not be so familiar with with the province of Bahia in in Brazil, and Santo Amaro is a very special place, and Salvador as well, especially in relation with, as you said, about African and Afro-diasporic music. So, maybe you could also elaborate a little bit more upon that before we move then to the voice.
[00:05:59] Speaker 3: Yes, okay. Salvador, Bahia, well, Salvador is the bigger city inside Recôncavo. Recôncavo Baiano is a very special region, as you said, and has many beautiful and important cities. One of them is Santo Amaro, and also Cachoeira, São Félix, Santo Antônio de Jesus, Ilha de Itaparica. All these places and other cities also are part of the Recôncavo, and all of them have a very important part in the Brazilian culture. Well, it's claimed that the samba was born in this place, the famous samba that everyone knows. The samba came from Santo Amaro, was born in Santo Amaro. Some people say it's Cachoeira, so it's a little fight, but they they all reach—
[00:06:56] Speaker 2: The same region.
[00:06:57] Speaker 3: The same region, so it's okay. I think it's Santo Amaro. And, well, it was born in Santo Amaro, and then with Tia Ciata, a woman that traveled from moved from Santo Amaro to Rio de Janeiro. And when she arrived in Rio de Janeiro, she had a house, and she made parties, and the music of these parties was the samba. And she was like the mother, the grandmother of the samba, Tia Ciata. So, Bahia, Salvador is the, I think, I don't I don't have the exact information, but I think it's the the biggest black population outside Africa in the world. So, it's a very intense very deep and intense influence of African culture, mainly Yoruba. So, we we have a deep contact with it. And sometimes, I think when I'm when I arrived here and when I started talking to other fellows, and especially Obafemi, which is from Nigeria, and I was wondering, wow, there are some things that they don't know about Bahia, and many things that we don't know about Nigeria. So, this connection, sometimes we have a deep connection, but we don't know what what is still there, and they don't know what do we have here in in Bahia. So, I was like very curious about to know and to to match, to see what they still have about the Well, I know lots of things, like the food, acarajé, and some words. Yeah, Bahia is a huge state, like, bigger than Germany. [laughter] So, it's lots of things to say about Bahia. I don't know if I can—
[00:09:06] Speaker 2: No, but I think it's uh what is important also for your project, I think, is that what what you were just saying, that there are very uh long historical connections between mainly West Africa um and and Brazil.
[00:09:23] Speaker 3: Yes.
[00:09:24] Speaker 2: And the northwestern northeastern, sorry, coast of of Brazil. So, in this larger context, as you just mentioned before, what I find find very interesting, when you're talking about how you got to to to to the double bass, I wondered if double bass, or I mean, this instrument, as you moved from other instruments to the double bass, if this is then also linked to your questions about rhythm and melody. Because, I mean, we I guess we all know, no, don't we all know, I don't know, but the bass as a rhythmic instrument, but still also that can always take up melody, so it has a lot of capacity. I don't know how to, I mean, which words I could put this, but if you could talk maybe a little bit first about your instrument and how this is linked to your research and practice.
[00:10:14] Speaker 3: It's a very beautiful question, and I'm—it's a good provocation. [laughter] This is something that I should I should go deeper in this, and I thank you for this question. Well, the bass—
[00:10:30] Speaker 2: It's a wonderful instrument.
[00:10:31] Speaker 3: It's a wonderful instrument. And, in my master's degree work, I was talking about this, that the bass is a melodic instrument, but it the bass is supposed to provide the the the roots and the the ground for other musicians to play on this and also interact. There is a word that is often used for for this by jazz musicians, which is "comping," which is like you are creating the the the melodic accompaniment, and at the same time, you are interacting with other musicians, like if someone is playing and he's got some idea, a rhythmic idea or a melodic idea, and you can connect your accompaniment to that idea. So, this is called comping. You you will make everything get together at that time. It's like improvising, but it it's like improvising together.
[00:11:36] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:36] Speaker 3: So, collective improvising. And, well, I often think that the bass, talking about the the the rhythm the rhythmic heritage that we have from African musicians, but that people often relate Africa to percussion, but there are lots of melodic instruments also, and our patterns of melodies are always related to this also. The bass plays a very—I don't know how to describe, but I I can see that the bass moves like making the walking bass, making making the accompaniment with quarter notes like [singing 00:12:24]. But often, you can see the musicians playing [singing 00:12:30]. So, you have uh these elements. It doesn't come only from marching bands. It doesn't come only from the Western music. It comes from the—it's my my my idea. It comes from percussionists. It comes essentially, especially for from the hum, the drum hum. You have hum, the drum hum. You have hum, hum-pi, and ilá. This is a uh this is something that I observed in many cultures. In Bahia, you have hum, hum-pi, ilá, but if you go to Caribbean, you have other rituals that they always use three drums. One smaller one, a medium one, and a lower one. The lower one is always playing to communicate with the deity, and it's always soloing, it's always provoking, it's always creating a situation that makes the movement happen. So, I relate this, this, the bass, this bass drum, to what happens with the double bass in the in the pop music, as we know today, because all the pop music also comes from the blues, from from jazz, from all this African heritage. So, my relation to the bass is that, and the the rhythmic thing about this is that I can use my voice, I I can export these elements, these rhythmic elements from the bass to my voice, and I can also export my melodic and rhythmic elements to the bass. Sometimes, I can't say from which one I am uh using the vocabulary. Sometimes I'm using a vocabulary most related to the voice, and sometimes I use some a vocabulary most related to the bass, and it's like a a communication the whole time.
[00:14:48] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Isn't it, I mean, if I may step in there, because especially the double bass is also, I mean, just as the the corpus of the instrument as such is very big in comparison to other instruments, right? And with a very full sound. Um so, connecting the body, I mean, the voice and the body, with the body of an instrument is like a, I don't know, like twins, maybe, more or less.
[00:15:18] Speaker 3: Yes.
[00:15:18] Speaker 2: So, it might be easier to connect, because, I mean, like on the same, let's say, you as if the body body voice and the and the body instrument, they could meet on the same level. I mean, if I say level, you know, it's not the same as if you would do it with a guitar, because there you need as like a translation coming to the same level. So, when you're talking about the voice, this interaction between the voice and the instrument, I mean, you started talking about this a little bit, but maybe you could develop this a little bit more. Also, I at least what I understood also when you gave other presentations, it is very much that the that the instrument gives like a is sometimes like the starting point, as the voice can be the starting point. So, you always have a dialogue, but in this dialogue happens—I mean, I come from film studies, and then when you talk about montage, you would say, okay, you have one picture that has one one idea or sense, and then you have another one, but when you put them together, there's always like an additional sense. You always add something as if you had isolated elements. So, maybe this is also a little bit like that. You have different—
[00:16:48] Speaker 3: Groups.
[00:16:49] Speaker 2: —groups, corpus, bodies, that you put together. They all have their own function and their own message, let's put it like that for the moment, individually. But as soon as you put them together, you can create something that goes beyond the the individual, what, musician, if the bass, if you take the double bass as musician as well.
[00:17:17] Speaker 3: Yes. At least, this is a little bit what I got from other presentations when we were talking about that. Yes, and and this also happens, and, well, it happens in a in a smaller in a smaller frame, like me, Alexandre, and the double bass, and it also happens in a larger frame, like when I'm playing with other musicians. So, we we have uh I have Alexandre, my body, my voice. I have the double bass with its own vocabulary, and I have other musician, his ideas, his inner world, the musical world, and you have his instruments that always suggests a different vocabulary because it's funny because sometimes we tend to think that the ideas that we play on our instrument are like our voice, but sometimes you play something that was learned from the vocabulary of the instruments that you've heard of other musicians, that you've sometimes, if you go to a an academic school, you learn like a method, and you have to play those patterns, those scales, those things, and you always reproduce them. Of course, you will reproduce them with your own way, but it's something that tends to be not your completely own ideas. So, when you have the combination of one person, one instrument, another person, another instrument, you have a wide range of vocabulary and ideas coming from different places, and you are always—and when you try to to get them together, it's like trying to to see, you know, how can I say, it's like being in a universe and catching the stars that are crossing, like getting them together to go in the same direction, you know? [laughter] So, but it's a it's a very interesting job to make, to to perform with other musicians and trying to know their music and to interact with their music and with the language, with the the range of their instruments, and trying to to connect. This happened a lot with Luca when we played together, Luca Mukavele, because he plays different instruments, and each instrument I had to create—
[Segment 2/2 | 00:20:00–end]
[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Create a different dialogue. I had to to to manage to to get connected with him. When he was playing mbira, I had to think of a way to play that we could have a a conversation. When he was playing the uvoco, I had to change to move to another thing, to another kind of performance. When he was playing Shiten, I had to move. So, it was always like getting to know each of the instrument like if he had different personalities. [laughter] And I have to deal with all of them. So, it's very interesting because it's not the same music. When different instruments, you won't play the same music. It's like like you said, you have different groups and when you get them together, you will have a a third element or fourth element.
[00:00:58] Speaker 2: Mm. But this, I mean, when you play together with Luca Mukavele from Mozambique, maybe it's not important that it was from Mozambique, but the fact that he was playing different instruments, but some of them actually exist in a almost the same way like chitende and what's the name again? Mbira? Mbira, uvoco? No, the chitende exists also in Brazil. Like berimbau. Berimbau, exactly. Which might make it easier to connect. Yes. At a certain point. Much easier, yes. But also, his his vocabulary from chitende is is different from the vocabulary we have for berimbau. Oh, okay. The the sound and the instrument is almost the same, but he has some accent, some that that we can connect. We you you know, you feel it. No, this is familiar, but it's not the same. Okay. It's kind of Wow. And he, a very beautiful thing about the work of Luca is that he he he tries to to get the instruments, the traditional instruments, to a different level. He's always improving and incorporating other influences. So, it's not the traditional chitende. He tries to make something different with the chitende and to adapt and to get connected with the music that we play like the modern music, contemporary music. So, this is very nice.
[00:02:32] Speaker 2: Maybe we can also talk about because you also played once with Jean-Luc Raharimanana from Madagascar. And when he talks about his his creation, I mean, he's a poet and writer first before being a a musician. But when he talks about his writing and his music, he says, there's one tone or one sound coming to him. And then he he will listen to this sound for for the whole day and work only with this sound and come, I mean, but it comes to him. So, it's like his body will receive something from somewhere else as if a voice connects with him from somewhere else. So, the at least what he said about Madagascar is as if there the the idea of being in trance while while creating is seems to be very very strong and very important. And I just wondered if this this way of because I I the concert that you gave, I mean, your performance together with Raharimanana was also very impressive because, at least, I had the impression that there you connected then on maybe on this [laughter] on this level somewhere. But and it spoke and I thought maybe this could also then help to think again about what you mean with voice.
[00:03:53] Speaker 1: Mm, yes.
[00:03:55] Speaker 2: I mean, the way he was talking about voice. Yes. And the tone. The tone. That is kind of guiding and then he follows.
[00:04:04] Speaker 1: Well, my experience with Jean-Luc was I I don't have words to describe, but it was incredible because he didn't speak Portuguese, neither English. [laughter] And I couldn't speak Malagasy and I couldn't speak French, which are his his languages. Well, and we were connected only through music. And this was a very exciting experience because I never had this before. [laughter] And about the voice, when we were playing in the concert, we tried to keep the same move we had in our rehearsals. We were rehearsing for a week. And we were always getting into the room, preparing our instruments, and we just started playing without saying nothing. And, wow, it it was always sounding good. And, [sighs] I'm still processing this. I'm still because [laughter] it it was very intense experience of creating and interacting with his ideas and his artistic sense. He always came up with something that was totally Sometimes, he he he just created uh guided the the performance to a different place. And I was like, "Wow, I had to catch the train." [laughter] And I was But, as you said, about the inner voice, about listening to something that is inside, my process my process is always about that. It's always about listening to something, thinking about Most of the times, I'm thinking about something that is not a sound. It's not specifically a sound. It's a person. It's a situation. It's a And then, the music comes out from this, but not from Well, I can respond. I I also respond to the sound. And I can think about a sound. I can think about [singing] and then I can go and go and go responding to each note that is coming out. But, it's it's always about like a situation, like someone or some place, or a feeling, something. I always use music for uh to respond my feelings to to to get a better place for me. If I'm feeling not good, I try to to make something to to turn this feeling into something good. So, this is the move of of creating for me. I'm listening to something, but not exactly a sound, but most of the times, uh something out of the musical world that becomes sound. And I I don't know exactly how it happens, but I know that when I think that I have to move in a specific way, the sound that I need, it comes to my mind and I just follow.
[00:07:49] Speaker 2: Mm. And it's it's particularly hard to, I mean, to express all of that, I mean, to put it again into words and into contact concepts afterwards. But as you, I mean, with during your fellowship, what you one of your objectives that you had in the beginning was writing about it. So, I wonder, in comparison to when you arrived in Bayreuth and now when you're almost about to leave, [laughter] how what would you say what has changed then in terms of, I mean, the concepts that you would write about? Are there more? Are they different?
[00:08:23] Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
[00:08:24] Speaker 2: Could you give us an example, maybe?
[00:08:26] Speaker 1: Well, [sighs] Or just wait for the text. Yeah. [laughter] Probably, I'm coming out with some some text about not not about Bayreuth, but influenced by Bayreuth, but yes, also by talking about Bayreuth because it's a very special experience in my life to be in contact with many beautiful projects and people that are researching about Africa. And I I was just wondering what would it be. But when I came here, I had a a very nice feeling of connection and of collaboration and listening to the to to my fellow colleagues there. I had beautiful insights from the the the minimal things to their projects that are really wonderful themes. And I I will take a lot. But essentially, about talking about what I make that I feel that I really should put this on the paper, what how does it happen and and try to get more inside of my own work and try to connect it with with these other examples that I had here like the way that they make their researches, the my the other fellows, and these strategies of researching and analyzing and processing data and all this stuff. It it helped me a lot to think about how to perform with it, how to make my own research in terms of turning the artistic knowledge into scientific knowledge.
[00:10:20] Speaker 2: Mm. Kind of a translation for non-musicians as well.
[00:10:24] Speaker 1: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. This is important. [laughter]
[00:10:28] Speaker 2: Okay. Maybe we can then uh ask those who listen to this podcast, maybe then to check um the recordings of the concerts. Then then they would can follow more easily what we were talking about. And I think you just uh are about to prepare also like a small documentary about your work here in Bayreuth, right?
[00:10:49] Speaker 1: Yes, I'm preparing with the movie maker, Marvin Rodriguez. And, well, um it was a recording session uh where I was showing a little bit of my process of creation. Uh I had like a creative session, which I'm calling the Seed Project, where I'm like creating in the moment and using I'm going to use this material for future projects uh using the elements that I created in this session. And then, we were talking about my time here. And I was showing some of the places that I've been working here in Bayreuth like Iwalewahaus, Hugo-Rüdel-Straße.
[00:11:39] Speaker 2: And the Kulturhaus, not to forget.
[00:11:41] Speaker 1: Kulturhaus, yes. The the the recording session, the the creative session was at Neuneinhalb Kulturhaus, very special place for me, all these places.
[00:11:53] Speaker 2: Okay. So, I guess then um complementary to to to the podcast that we um that people can listen to, they could maybe then also watch the film or the recordings of uh your concerts. And all together, this will give like a, yeah, like a more comprehensive overall impression of work in progress, music as research.
[00:12:16] Speaker 1: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Definitely. [laughter]
[00:12:21] Speaker 2: Okay, Alexandre. Thank you very much for this conversation. And also, thank you very much for having been with us, having shared all all your knowledge and also your fantastic music. I think everybody was very happy with that.
[00:12:31] Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much. And I'm very happy for this time. I will take uh I will arrive in Brazil with a different energy, with lots of beautiful experiences that I had here.
[00:12:47] Speaker 2: Okay. Thank you so much.
[00:12:49] Speaker 1: [laughter]Value Annotations
Origins & context
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People & roles
Origins & context
- Title
- Prof. Dr. Ute Fendler and Cluster fellow Alexandre Vieira on the African diasporic influence on Brazilian culture
- Language
- English
- Podcast series
-
Cluster Conversations
- Date
- September 8, 2023
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- Extent
- 33 minutes, 0 seconds
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Further details
- Episode number
- 13
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