Filmgespräch: Afrikaleidoskop meets ARTE: Südafrikas Weg aus der Apartheid
- Title
- Filmgespräch: Afrikaleidoskop meets ARTE: Südafrikas Weg aus der Apartheid
- Abstract
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As part of its film series "AfriKaleidoskop meets ARTE" the Africa Multiple Cluster of Excellence showed the ARTE documentary Südafrikas Weg aus der Apartheid – Teil 1: Suche nach Antworten, on May 8, 2025
What does justice mean in post-apartheid South Africa—and who gets to define it? Watch the powerful discussion recorded after the screening of the ARTE documentary ,Kulturhaus Neuneinhalb. Filmmaker Thomas Blom and scholar Patricia Pinky Ndlovu-Gatsheni reflect on memory, reconciliation, and the unfinished struggle for equality. - YouTube playlist
- Afrikaleidoskop meets ARTE
- Date
- August 7, 2025
- Language
- English
- Transcript
- Sorry. >> Yeah. Okay. Um, thank you so much uh for being here. Um, as as Doris introduced me, my name is Patricia and um both the moderator and um I'll probably give my two cents as well uh my reflections of of the film. Uh but before I I share my reflections, I'll quickly introduce you to the audience. Uh director Thomas Bloom graduated cumloud from the senost I think. Forgive me first. I just had to apologize. There a lot of uh Dutch Yeah, I think so. It's okay. I'll go through it quickly. uh he graduated cumloud from uh the seost academy uh for audiovisisual arts as a freelance director. He made a Moscow stadium disaster for ESPN Europe which exposed the greatest footballer football disaster in history and two uh documentaries for the deported a series about retaining a asylum children which was awarded the Clara Major. >> I can give a short summary. I I I do this a long time and I made a lot of documentaries all over the place and uh and also uh one which led to this series which is called the hunt for Gaddafi billions. It was also on a and another one perhaps people in the audience have seen it. It's about Saudi Arabia. It was on ZTF info. So >> Okay. >> All over the place. Yeah. >> Okay. Great. Okay. So I'll leave it there. then I will just uh then um share my reflections. So I I also decided to uh sort of put down my notes because I had the privilege of uh watching the film before you guys. So I just decided to put down the notes so that I'm not all over the place. H firstly I'd like to express my gratitude to Thomas and his co-producer Misha Vessel and Golis to h for their remarkable film. Before inviting Thomas to discuss the film, I would like to offer my reflections as a nonsp specialist in a date. I speak as a citizen of South Africa based on what I've heard and read. The film raises several critical issues. However, before I raise some of those issues, let me start by characterizing my understanding of aparate, I think it is important that we are cognizant of the fact that aparate was not merely an event that started in 1946 and ended in 1994. But for me I see it as a colonial system that is embedded in structures, institution and people's psyche in which power, economy, subjectivity, space, education, language and marriages just to mention a few were organized in a manner where race served as a fundamental organizing principle. It is not an event as its effects have persisted beyond its legal abolition. Consequently, I question about I question whether a date left anything untouched in South Africa. By this, I'm highlighting the enormity of a date. So, one of the themes that emerged in my mind as I was watching the film is a notion of continuity and discontinuity theme between a date and the so-called postabarate or democratic South Africa. For instance, violence continues A example is the the the Shabville massacre depicted in the film and the Mariana Masakai for those of you that happened in 2012 in the northwest province where black miners were killed during a peaceful protest in ways similar to the 1960 Shabville protest against Paslo. But the Marana Masakai was h in about uh demanding improved working conditions and wage increases. I'm not going to be >> although these h massacres occurred in different years they illustrate continued violence against black bodies. Another observation speaks to the notion of free at last which is the title of the film in English. It is a provocative as it prompts me to ponder on the big question of freedom and its meaning in South Africa. I don't think Thomas and and and his co-producers mean that South Africa is free per se. I think they are provoking us to think about freedom and its meanings. I'm saying this because people still people in South Africa are still fighting for freedom and this is based on my experiences. Freedom from poverty, violence, crime, femicides, access to strategic resources like land. If there's any freedom I saw in the film is the freedom to express frustrations. In addition, I've also made an observation of how the black survivors of Shabville massacre and other members who lost their family members during apartate are still on a quest for closure. I guess it explains why the untold stories of apartate. But how does one reach closure if they still many bodies unaccounted for and them being denied to view the bodies of being of their loved ones as seen in the film. What also stands out for me in the film is the challenge how to make a transition from a traumatic experience to the so-called freedom at last. At the center of this question at the center of this is the question of justice. And here I'm reminded of Mam Dani who argues that the South African transition shifted from the Nuremberg template of justice where the perpetrators are identified and pushed to the political justice push punished rather sorry to political justice where the perpetrators and the victims are given space h or platform to speak listen and forgive each other so as to relive together in a new society as citizens of New South Africa/Rainbow Nation. >> Okay. The last part. However, it's important to note that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it's contested in the context of South Africa. h the question whether it it it worked or not particularly because the perpetrators as we've also seen on the film refused to avail themselves to to before the TRC this gesture was not necessarily the the gesture of forgiveness was not necessarily widely embraced perhaps my last reflection is that we see the African national government paralyzed in the face of these challenges where The the ANC the African National Congress is fighting for its political survival. A stalwarts of anti-aparid struggle h are blaming one another while the majority of the population wallows in poverty as victims of crime and violence. How can such a ruling party carry the burden of delivering substantive freedom? This therefore this begs to begs to us to pose the question what freedom at last do we mean? >> Thank you. I will now hand over to Thomas. >> You want me to react on that? >> It's up to you really, but these are just some of the things I was thinking about as I was watching. >> Yeah. What I what I Let's do it step by step as far as I can process this. Um I totally agree with you. I mean that's why we started out with uh about that apart height is not like a a a period but it's it was all always there. So that's why we start out with that piece of archive saying that the blacks were always uh uh suppressed in South Africa. So, but uh why we wanted to make this series, it has several reason reasons and it and it touches all all your reflection. So, I'm really happy about that. First of all, we wanted to show that apartheite is a system and that it makes people perpetrators and victims and but it's it's really a system with laws and stuff like that. Uh the second thing is your reflection about free at last. It's absolutely right. We discussed uh for hours also with Misha and with SABC about should should he do a question mark behind it. Uh but we had we had the feeling it's a little bit more pro uh provocative provoke like this and uh so we left it but you picked it up brilliantly and I think at at the last part you talk about the ANC uh at this moment right? Yeah, for for the people here, I really hope that you watch the three episodes because it is exactly what you are saying now and and and that will be shown in the the the the next episodes because after about that era the ANC had a had a big task uh to deliver a kind of justice and a kind of closure and at this moment in South Africa uh it's there's turmoil uh because there was no closure and because the ANC left uh left one yeah to say it bluntly I come from Amsterdam uh uh they didn't deliver uh that well um so for the audience um bear in mind that we made this series for South Africa itself so it was shown at the channel one in South Africa the three-part series and South Africa I mean Germany and and Europe that's that's all tricky but South Africa is something else political very tricky right there are a lot of feelings so it was re the tension for us to make it for so especially and also for uh the producers in South Africa they were very anxious to put something like this on the South African television because this is the first time if I may say So that people and it's hard to believe talk openly about these kind of experiences. Uh so that shows that this trauma is really buried. I I think I'm right to say that right Patricia Braticia and for us to make this series as well. And I um I got the idea when I was a lot in South Africa for another film about the Gaddafi money. And then I saw the Teimo case and then I asked my the the researcher, okay, but why is it why isn't isn't he in jail, this guy? And then they explained, people explained to me that the TRC um uh there was one big condition within the TRC that if the TRC said no, this kind of violence was not um cannot be justified as a political violence, then um then those people should be prosecuted. and they made a list of 300 people to be pro the cases and and the the perpetrators should be prosecuted from those 300 people on that list which was a very hard condition for uh for the TRC also for Yasmin SOA for others to join the TRC from those cases and those perpetrators none has been convicted. So the main condition of the TRC is not met. So what why we wanted to make this series is also to show in in the western view in the western frame like oh the TRC that's brilliant and we have to do it like that. But there is much more behind it. First of all, the condition was not met and secondly we show in the in the third part that people also uh members of the TRC like Yasmin SOA wanted the Nuremberg trial. they wanted it but you know to keep the country peaceful or you know there were too too many forces uh they chose uh to do the TRC but at this moment those conditions within the TRC are not met and that's one of the reasons there is so much um well uh people are not happy in South Africa for this and then I let you talk please uh for this one uh for the first uh this was also shown of course in South Africa and I'm I'm very glad and proud to say that that uh Bill and Nancy and Meline Foolard are now working together. So uh it's the the process has started to to find those missing bodies and and if you have seen uh episode two and three at this moment uh for example Ramaposa has conducted an inquiry to the lack of justice uh and uh and and they want to to look if the ANC deliberately didn't want to uh uh prosecute the perpetrators in those 300 cases and and the one name which pops up all the time is Makei and Mbakei has to uh well uh he will be questioned in that questioned in that inquiry. So that's my reaction or your reflection. >> Okay. >> Thank you so much. Uh um I mean the one thing also that comes into mind is um it would have been nice if was here as well, right? As female black director who worked with you just to also >> give her own view about >> you know the >> Well, yeah. Well, we first of all we Misha and I only wanted to make this film um in a total collaboration with South Africa. we've seen so many films from western filmmakers you know they they fly in they give their view on apartite or whatever >> I don't like it >> so we said well because we were in talks actually with London production houses and they they wanted they didn't want that and we said no we want it so I'm very glad for Acta and ZF they stepped in this project because that's we we could deliver the total cooperation on South Africa I mean this is totally unique. I've never seen that. So, South Africa, Western production companies, Western broadcasters, and so Lisba, uh, and we worked, um, yeah, it it it was marvelous. It was and and we learned a lot, I have to say. And if I may say, one example is um we we saw a lot of dead bodies in uh in this episode of the 69 in Sharpfield and um I noticed that uh when we had viewings with South African people and and I think it's perhaps for you the same that I mean that that hurts a lot of course to see and there was really and I I have to say it a bit careful but there was really a difference between I mean we in the editing room as white people we didn't think that through in that way >> uh and and and such details it's not a detail but such elements uh yeah were marvelous to see that we could discuss on that for example the the role of the PSC instead of the ANC all this all that >> all those things we even if you study 20 years of South Africa you don't understand it so it was total cooperation so so so Lisa was viewing everything uh time and time again gave her few and you know we we gave our input and u and I've I've never had such an a brilliant uh corporation Yeah. >> And then um before I open the floor for questions, I mean there's um the one thing also that I noticed was um you saw how the the what's his name? Um I'm I'm I'm grandson. >> No, no, no. Not not the grandson, but uh one of the the lady who survived Shabville. Yeah. >> And uh the man who was among those who organized the strike, >> Michael Chiso. Yeah. Yeah. And um I was looking at uh when you guys were capturing those stories and they started crying and I mean this is something that happened many years ago. But obviously you can see that >> as we were filming the the wound is still fresh, right? They had to I think the interviews took them back to that dark place where they had to relive the trauma. So my question here is then you know as a researcher I mean normally we're trained that when you uh doing interviews with your participant it's important to sort of maintain a distance you know to sort of to be able to >> you know maintain subjectiv not subjectivity but objectivity right and then you shouldn't be so close so my my question is what was going on like what is your take on that how did you uh handle you know that part when people start crying and breaking down in front of the camera, right? And um were there any referrals? I mean, but if if any I mean even if you to refer to if if you were to refer them to a therapist or a counselor, I mean, no amount of counseling will sort of >> help them in because >> for as long as there's no justice, right? Yeah. >> Um, so but I just want to get your your your input or what did you think? What was going on? >> Well, um, first of all, I I did the filming in Sharpfield and um together with she was there also and uh Sana >> uh from Sharfield itself. Um and it first the first thing is those were marvelous marvelous people so warm and open and and I think u the openness of them uh has I don't know uh has has set us on the path also to open up because in the next episodes there is there are a lot of cases a lot of stuff uh to open up also So in those cases and Michael Tikiso is uh I mean he's grand. He's uh he knows shel he knows everybody and he's not afraid. That's I think that's the main point. Back then as a young man he was not afraid to oppose the the white oppressors and now he's not afraid to show his emotions. So I was interviewing him and um I don't know uh it happened. Yeah. and uh and yeah it was a a blessed moment I think uh uh yeah >> okay >> yeah and and for us and for me also to be in sharpfield and to I always go to where it happens you know if it's a front line or in Afghanistan or whatever and now to be in Sharfield that that name which is so important in in my youth as well uh that was something very very special Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Thank you, Thomas. I will now open the floor for questions. Um, are there any questions? >> You can also ask in German. I >> Yeah. >> Question. You go to the microphone. We can hear it in the recording. Uh I can there are no questions. >> Okay. >> Somebody dares. >> Please introduce yourself, your name and your institutional affilation. >> Yeah. So my name is Timas. Um I'm also a member of the University of Pyro but not in the cluster of excellence of Africa sciences. um natural sciences but um I lived in South Africa as a as a child for five years. So I I lived there during the um late '7s. So I exper experienced also my own um part of the apartate side. So but my my question so first of all before I pose my question I would like to express my deep gratitude and appreciation for the work that you did on this series and also for your very elegant um elaboration on on the backgrounds and your personal perspective. Thanks a lot. So the question that came to my mind so we've been hearing a lot about the the TRC in inquisi inquiries and also the Numbberg processes have been mentioned a number of time >> and um uh one big difference was >> so maybe also what what made the NAG processes so successful or maybe more more profound in their impact is that >> teams of international lawyers and prosecutors came in um which was clearly the the case after the second world war. So it was natural but um maybe this would have could have been something that also the TRC could have considered clearly not from Europe or the US but bringing people in from the African Union or from from other from >> international courts or whatever >> to support this and also to bring in an outside perspective. Do you have an idea of why this was not done or not considered? >> Because it was a compromise because ANC had to compromise with the national party >> and and and so many I I yeah it's it's broadcasted already in Holland in in South Africa. So I can say it there was a political deal and political agreement between because uh the national party and and the the per white perpetrators had so so much dirt on ANC and we show that we will show that in the series for example the ANC camps outside South Africa where people were trained there were were also tortures there were ANC spies so there was a lot of dirt on ANC members so they said the those people said to the ANC okay if you come after us we come after you then all this dirt will come out so that was one of the reasons and Yasmin SOA is telling that later on in the series that's that's one of the reasons such compromise uh uh and it was and I have to say uh Nelson Mandela uh was very probably very wise in his uh uh to say okay let's not go that route or because there was still so much violence also black black-on-black violence that you know the country uh the the main task was to to calm down to calm the country down but like I said earlier >> Yasmin SOA and others they wanted the Nuremberg trial because what what happened now with the TRC and we in the west perhaps think oh the TRC is brilliant but it is a huge huge thing to ask from victims and families of victims. Okay, listen to the story. You get the truth and you have to say okay um thank you thank you for the truth and and there will be no prosecutions. That's that's really a big thing to ask I think uh to be honest and especially in those 300 cases where the TRC said okay those perpetr perpetrators had to be prosecuted and it's not done then you victimize the victims again. So uh but to answer your question uh there was a political deal there was a deal behind it. Yeah. >> And we will show that in episode three. Yeah. So that's why the impact of the series is quite big in South Africa and hopefully the the frame and I look at all those beautiful students the frame of the TRC will will you know will will have some more depth in in the west because it's now like almost like a fairy tale like the TRC then then we have closure but that's not the case. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Thanks. >> Thanks a lot. I can also say one thing about solissua and uh because Mr. Fwood the old Mr. Fwood he is born like 900 meters where I live in Amsterdam. He's an Amsterdam guy >> and Africans is of course kind of Dutch language. So we understand Africans and and you talk about nowadays South Africa. Um because we are from the homelands, we could access some of the bads Africana killers >> uh more easily than than Yeah. >> Yeah. And that's, you know, uh it's it's super sad, but uh that's why this kind of cooperation uh that's why we could could show all sides. And and one thing also especially in episode two that's we talk about flaklas which is really the killing site which horrible things we showed it to a a lot of young South African people who are disgruntled because we were afraid okay are those stories too hard-hitting but we what we noticed is also with young South African people is that they really wanted this information >> first of all they wanted to know what really happened. What What is flaklas? What happened? You know, and uh um yeah. Uh so because we speak a little bit of Dutch and Africans, we could get those interviews. >> Thank you. Are there any more questions, remarks, comments? >> Hello. Um I just have a quick question about your film making process. Um because I was wondering um because the only um really personal case that you uh brought to film was the one about Ahmed. Um, of course, every case is personal and I'm sure there are many, many, many unsolved deaths or um, suicides >> in the history of apartheite. And I was wondering how you went about choosing which cases to present really prominently and if there were maybe families who were disappointed or maybe even angry at you for not um showcasing their family members individual fates. Well, it's a it's a whole process. Like Tilana, I know her now for a couple of years because uh the the betrayal of her from Tilana, the betrayal of her father. Um I heard that when uh when we were filming for another documentary in South Africa and immediately it struck me. I thought okay first of all this is kind of miracle. uh uh Chilana as a young woman of 19, she was already aware that you know this system was wrong and she expressed it already. She got beaten up by her father and she didn't participate in this racist attitude. So for me I thought okay that is something so rare. I mean if you are brought up in a certain environment if if you if as a young child if you develop such a morality that is yeah that is rare. So and I wanted to to understand the structure of the story. So I I wrote back then a very a long read for the main Dutch newspaper just to look if we can if we could structure this story and uh but she was never on television. So when uh so yeah when when we thought okay let's try and make the series then then I reached out to Tana and said okay do you want to tell the story uh and how you betrayed your father and and she was willing to do it. So to get to those real emotions I think uh it's very important to uh to connect to people and that sometimes takes a long time with Michael it was shorter u but we have marvelous yeah it's three-part series so we have marvelous other um yeah very very strong uh cases yeah very strong stories where things shift from perpetrator to to uh victim to perpetrator again. Uh but it it yeah it takes years to to connect and that's why and and so we first saw the stories okay those are interesting because they have strange twists and they tell something about the system and then of course we connect and and some of those people were willing to tell the stories. Nobody was angry. Uh, this first episode was shown in before I wasn't in Johannesburg because we didn't have time, but I I really regret it because it was shown outside in the air at the prison where Mandela was prisoned and also Gandhi and uh and I heard it was a really really emotional story and also other families were there. So there is a kind of connection between the families who are looking for truth and closure. So um so there is not like you know I want to be upfront or what they and they now have I think 45 families have now um they want to bring President Ramaposa in court uh to force an investigation into the delay of the prosecutions. Yeah. So they are working together. One of the families is who didn't have closure in in that sense is also Steve Bo. I mean is is still I think behind his name the official uh cause of death is is like trip tripping something or falling or it's it's it's an apartite but it's it's not opened up that case still and so are many many cases but hopefully it will now. Yeah. >> Thank you. Thank you. Are there any more questions? Okay. Um, hi. Um, first of all, thank you for your movie and thank you for your reflections and thoughts. I don't have a question, just a little comment and or rather I want to say thank you for giving us such an important insight into like a white supremacist system like apatite was because it strikes me every time again to realize how many people here in the global north or however you want to call it don't have any clue about what was going on back then even what is going on today. So, thank you for showing such a specific caves of injustice and violence so that hopefully one day there's like a collective remembrance of what happened and an acknowledgement what was going on. Yeah. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> Juie, did you want to say something? Oh, okay. Now I found it for me uh the grandson of for of William Fwood. Uh he he goes around in the three episodes. Uh he his life is he went he was a grandson of wood. He went to London was a student. His eyes opened came back he was me he became member of the ANC even worked at the TRC. So he made this turn also but I find it so important to put in the quotes about the Dutch reformed church and about you know uh with with the Bible in the hand having uh bought took 97% of the land because and and and that I think is your reflection as well how if if there is such if if there was a period that 97% of the best land of course was in white hands you know it's not a surprise that it's such an unequal country so when I hear Musk and when I hear also in in Holland they are there's a kind of proudness now on the on the bors but you know uh I think South African and the South Africans are South Africans are marvelous marvelous people because they had such a rough time But there is such a rough time ahead to to get a little bit equal. So when I hear all those stories about the white farmers, I think there I mean there's there's a bit nuance and there is violence against the white farmers, but uh it t it will take so you you know as best it will take such a long time to well to uh how how do you say polish away uh that horrible system and also the inequality which the system brought out. Yeah. Yeah. Um, just to add to who? You didn't introduce yourself, I think. >> Yeah. >> I'm Rachel and I'm a student. >> Sorry. What's your name? >> I'm Rachel. >> Rachel. >> Okay. I'm just saying I'm just saying I'm I just wanted to add to what Rachel was saying because as I was sitting here, I I'm a mother. So I I agree with her that this is amazing that h first and foremost like you're saying that uh being a white person from the Netherlands h it's amazing how you're able to get access to all this information that if me or Rama would go to those spaces wouldn't be able to have access h so I think h I'm just reminded that it would be nice as well for my kids also to know what happened in their country Right. And I was just thinking like this is amazing. This is the this film should be shown in schools you know in in in in the universities they should be examined on such material you know because h like you're saying sometimes I remember when I was doing my my honors in South Africa and for the first time and this speaks to how you know our education system it's very eurocentric in South Africa and for the longest of time we you know we didn't know anything like when We were taught in sociology for instance um we always got introduced to h five white men from five white countries right dem k max vber right but nobody I remember when I was doing honors level that that's like four years of of university I have not heard anything about any of the h south African sociologist right just because there was no term or concept sociology ology it doesn't mean that there were no sociologist at the time in South Africa right so it's only in honors that I was introduced to people like Achima FJ all these amazing brilliant South African scholars who actually speak on social issues right so I think this work is important because then kids can be introduced to it earlier on and they get to be critical and appreciate and see and not to forget what has happened in their country and perhaps also help us understand what's why things are as they are because a lot of what's happening in South Africa now it's it's very much shaped by the system aid system which even though like I've said in my reflections that even though the physical administration of it has ended but it continues to haunt us you know it's it's there constantly I mean the land issue it's still a huge thing and I was very appreciative when vellum verif mentioned mentioned that we took admitting that they actually took 87% of the land you know and then we were left with nothing like majority of black South Africans were pushed to the margins of you know South Africa where the the soil is not fertile for them to plant anything really you know so I agree with Rachel it's amazing what what you've done >> no we we because we thought uh we have one chance uh with Arthur with Firo Satf and and especially with SABC and uh to to retell the apart story and at the same time look at what is not solved or look what really happened. So in you will see in part two and three we have also tough interviews with ministers back then who admit you know uh that the well so we felt we have one chance to retell it in a in a decent way. Um yeah and and hopefully it it will resonate but uh yeah but it will be shown in a lot of countries at least. So yeah. >> Okay. Any more questions? Or should I just Oh, okay. >> Hi. Um, I'm from Namibia, so next to South Africa. And just to >> say thank you again, I think this is I think it should have been shown at school. Um, it wasn't. Um, I'm curious to know what your thoughts are on the most recent South African election because it's been the first election where people born after apartheite could vote and things have changed quite a bit politically in the country. So, I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on that. >> Yeah. Well, well, I think it's logic that the ANC doesn't have a total majority now. Uh and one of the reasons is that they didn't fulfill a lot of promises and and of course corruption. We made the hunt for Gaddafi's billions and we showed that uh uh that uh Gaddafi was sponsoring certain uh former presidents of South Africa. So there was quite a cor there was quite a corruption going on and the DA of course has done I'm I'm apolitical. I mean I even in the Netherlands I never tell who I vote or whatever. So uh but in in Cape Town there is this feeling like okay they they are not doing a bad job or something. So yeah, if it feels logical if you don't uh if you don't if you promise a lot and you don't deliver then uh >> well h my my two cent on that um is that I think of course people feel like it's been 20 years post date or is it um over 20 years over 46 >> 35 years >> 35 thank you very much >> and of because uh people now feel like okay fine surely there should be changes by now there should be you know um service deliveries all all the struggles that um you know in relation to service deliveries now things should be better right h but I also feel like in the process of us wanting that and again I said this where I think we need to remember that the the the ANC the African Congress also inherited so much of burden from the apart right so much so I think I think 35 years it's not enough to actually for them to repair all sorts of things like all cuz I I I believe that they sort of made sure when they gave up power they destabilized the county in such a way that it will take years and years h you know for us to recover. And what's happening to some extent is sort of to prove that black people are incapable of actually ruling themselves. And this is not to say um political party or members are perfect. I acknowledge that there's corruption, but even in the national parties there were corruptions. They've done so much looting. And I feel like sometimes we we sort of often you know overlook that you know and I've also had a lot of people I've had these conversations when I was teaching at the University of South Africa where a friend will be like well I'm tired of you know during a date where people black people are actually nostalgic about a date that the national party build them houses but those were like matchboxes in those lines. Yeah. My grandmother had one. I grew up in those houses and and people will be happy right and then so people felt like well they did something and what is ANC doing right so um I think for me it's it's perhaps also if such work is accessible to students now younger people then they would question whether and again power in South Africa still lies with white people whether we like it to admit or not so yeah >> yeah also what struck me And I don't know if you agree with me but um with younger generation in South Africa the anger towards Nelson Mandela and Tutu against Tutu and uh and and what I hear constantly okay they have given us political freedom but they didn't give us economical freedom and and I think that's yeah if that if if that's not changing then then Yeah. Then that the anger stays of course. Yeah. >> No, I agree completely. I think the wound is too deep. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But thank you. >> Okay. Thanks. >> Any more questions? Oh, they're leaving. I thought they coming. Okay. Okay. >> Just just one very short question. It concerns the part two and three that you've mentioned. Of course, people here in the room are very curious uh where and when we will have the chance to see those two other parts. Can you say anything on >> Yeah, I think it's aired on a on >> the 20th of May. >> 20th of May. Yeah. And >> series, >> but every week one episode. >> No, I think the in the evening the whole three >> really. >> Yeah, I think. >> Okay. >> I have to look. >> So, if we miss uh Okay, let let's wait for >> Yeah. Yeah, that's a hard watch to do the three series uh back to back. Yeah. >> So, it was it was aired first in in the Netherlands and and then uh at SABC1, now art and then it goes to uh I don't know Scandinavia and other countries. Yeah. and art is uh >> all of them on the 20th May. >> Really? Okay. I didn't know. It was also the first time I've seen a dubbing version, so it was special. Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Any more questions? >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. I may have a question in that regard. First of all, thank you so much. Um my name is Nihan. I'm a doctoral candidate of intersectionality studies. personally come from Turkey but we are um with whatever is happening in the world whatever we are observing um we are thinking more and more how it has been in the past and South Africa has always been an inspiration for us and it was so interesting to learn more and more about um one of my questions were going to be like how did you manage to get the cooperations the content but it was already very well answered in the discussion But I was wondering if you are only considering the European landscape to be promoting the documentary series or do you have any interest or ideas to let it reach >> to uh to other Yeah. Well, it's uh it's a bit boring answer, but that's a a sales agent who is doing that. >> And I'm always surprised. You know, if you make something, then sometimes I'm in a country and then I put on the television and then see I don't know exactly, but my my guess is that it will reach Turkey and uh and and America and other countries as well. the last the Gaddafi documentary went to 40 countries or something. So I I fingers crossed I hope really that this series will have that reach as well. Yeah. But uh >> and my question is going to be lack of knowledge. How do we find art like the product? Is it on national TV? Is it online? >> Art is national television here, right? >> I don't know. >> I think Doris can answer. >> Non-German context. Ex. Yeah. No, it's just uh I know I know in France it's channel 4 uh but I don't know in Germany or and I think perhaps it goes to I don't know but >> perfect perfect thank you so much >> and I I to answer your question about the people who I I also in Holland uh we are for example we are working now on a documentary about the former prime minister and there was one editor chief who said back then many years ago just wait 20 30 years and then you know sometimes it's time for people to talk and that was at this moment. >> So we even got the politicians uh and and yeah it's amazing. So uh we feel really blessed that we could show all sides. So, so please look at two and three as well because it's it's really rare that and also soliswah played uh a very big uh role in that especially on the ANC side u um marvelous people who were willing to talk to us. Yeah. >> Amazing. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Uh any more questions? Okay. Should we wrap up? >> Yeah. But I want to say one thing. Okay. Okay. >> South Africa is such a beautiful, beautiful country with such beautiful, beautiful people. I mean, uh, if you have the chance to go to Africa, but especially South Africa, I mean, uh, there's so much we, uh, we lost in our society here in Western Europe. Uh, and you know, if you come at the airport and I hear that full laughter from somebody somewhere, I'm always happy uh to be in South Africa. Hopefully a little bit less crime. That would be nice. But uh yeah, >> but uh it yeah, it's such a magical country. So yeah, I just wanted to say that. >> Thank you so much, Thomas. This was amazing. Thank you so much for coming. Can we give him a hand of applause? Thank both of you for for being here and big applause for Pinky Pinky and Thomas as well. Thanks. >> Amazing. So, that was the official closure. Everybody can now sneak out and have a beer at the bar. Thanks a lot. >> Thank you so much. would be if you
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