New Year Lecture 2025: Intersectionality as a Living Practice: Beyond Labels and Boundaries

New Year Lecture 2025: Intersectionality as a Living Practice: Beyond Labels and Boundaries

Title: New Year Lecture 2025: Intersectionality as a Living Practice: Beyond Labels and Boundaries
Abstract: Each year, the Africa Multiple Cluster of Excellence starts its line of annual activities and events with the New Year Lecture open to the interested public, featuring prominent speakers who address questions and concepts central to the Cluster’s agenda. The sixth annual New Year lecture took place on 23 January 2025 on the campus of the University of Bayreuth.

It was held by Mirrianne Mahn, political activist, author, theatre person, city councilor in Frankfurt am Main and freelance consultant for diversity development and was entitled: Intersectionality as a Living Practice: Beyond Labels and Boundaries
YouTube playlist: New Year Lecture
Date: February 17, 2025
Language: English
has URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlVU5LuOVdk
Transcript: he hello everyone good evening dear colleagues dear friends distinguished guests dear mirian man in my capacity as the dean of the Africa multiple cluster of Excellence I have the great privilege and pleasure to welcome you to the New Year lecture 2025 today's lecture is already the sixth edition of this annual event it was instituted in 2020 to Mark the beginning of the Clusters academic activities in each calendar year the New Year lecture brings together cluster members and writer publics to engage with questions and Concepts that are Central to the cluster's agenda our speakers so far were all recruited from within the cluster I delivered the first New Year lecture in January 2020 under the title you see it here on the screen figuring out how to reconfigure African studies for the 2021 Edition uh we had to move online due to the covid-19 pandemic and Professor UT fendler Deputy spokesperson of the cluster delivered um the uh lecture about poly rythmic gestures relational perspectives on from verbal Audio Visual and performative arts across the African continent in 2022 uh the event was once again held virtually and Professor Peter simate director of the African cluster Center at Mo University in Kenya um gave a lecture titled ways of knowing Africa African literature and shifting imaginaries and I'm sure many of you remember the first postco uh New Year lecture of 23 when Professor Sabo Jane linii the cluster Vice of research at the time presented his 10 challenges in reconfiguring African studies yet another highlight came in 20124 when we invited the chair of The clust Advisory Board Professor akosua adaku Ando from the University of Ghana to give the New Year lecture complimented by your response from another member of our advisory report Professor Grace musila from the University of the wit Waters run in Johannesburg the title of Professor adomako ovo's uh lecture was crazy things can we be true to an African agenda and survive in today's Academy and in some ways this year's lecture will take up questions of survival though in a different context in a cluster that works towards the reconfiguration of African studies one of our main tasks consists of constantly reflecting on our positionality as Scholars who study Africa we are committed to changing the terms of knowledge production in our field and this is why the unique setup of the cluster brings the univers of pyoid together with uh um our locations on the continent the four African cluster centers however as an African studies institution with a home base at a German University we do not operate on an island we need to ask how the work we do relates to the wider political and social context in Germany as we conduct our scholarly activities we are called upon to scrutinize German Colonial history and the ways this history is remembered or rather not remembered in present day Germany we need to analyze hierarchies and power differentials and we need to explore the connections of our work with the realities and experience expences of black people and people of color in Germany such critical inquiry is especially urgent in the light of the recent decision by the United Nations to extend the international decade for people of African descent which lasted from 2015 to 2024 by another 10 years so these were some of the considerations that made us select mirian man as the first New Year lecturer who is not affiliated to the Africa multiple cluster we are delighted that she accepted our invitation to speak to us today as an afrer woman City councelor political activist author and playright intersectionality as a living practice is the title of her Le and it also captures her own biography and career her intervention is even more timely against the backdrop of the recent Onslaught on diversity equity and inclusion at the current juncture we as academics are not only called upon to maintain a diverse Equitable and inclusive culture based on intersectional princip principles at our institutions but we are also required to defend these principles against the rising um tide of racism and discrimination in the wider Society Miran man it is a great honor for us to have you here to deliver the seventh New Year lecture of the Africa multiple cluster of Excellence so uh before proceeding to the presentation of our speaker and the context I have to announce a change to the program as Dr Christine F William cannot be here today Professor Stefan Umar will take over the introduction and Dr Bak no will moderate the Q&A after the lecture and I also wish to acknowledge the uh wonderful team that made today's event possible as always they have done a very efficient job in providing the logistics led by Natalie rling Surfer who's somewhere up there uh Sabina grina who's here in the front Stephanie Stucker uh Diana margerie and others and um our online participants can be with us thanks to the support of Dominique must of the IT service center and as usual for our new year lecture we have sign language interpreters with us for translation into British sign language uh Nikki Harris and Sher Eugene Hart thanks for being with us today and thanks also to Thomas fedler from The interpreter's Office Union so please join me in giving a huge Applause to the team to Miran man and once again a very warm welcome to the 2025 New Year [Applause] lecture good yeah thank you very much uh to the dean to everyone coming everyone making this possible especially to Maran man for joining us today it's a real honor to welcome you to broid to this uh uh year New Year's lecture uh I think Marana is many people she is a writer an independent politician in the city parliament in Frankfurt she's an artist she's a speaker and once you know what she's working on this multitude comes it no surprise uh mirian has championed the causes of black people in Germany working tirelessly on issues of black representation fighting racism with an intersectional take fighting far extremism asking very uncomfortable questions about police violence and many more racism does not always come with bald heads and compet Boots sometimes it emerges right from the middle of society including sometimes left liberal circles Miran has been Miran has been very vocal on this and as you can imagine that does not always make friends Miran is someone who prefers words and action anti-racism and diversity Poli policies fail their objectives without a robust implementation and those who know her probably remember one sorry and those who know her probably uh remember one scene very clearly when Miran uh entered the stage at a award ceremony for Zimbabwean writer Titi dangara in 2021 won um and it was a a a Freedom's prize a Peace Prize that the University of Frankfurt usually donates uh mayor Peter feltman is seen here and mirian claimed space and she claimed this at a time when the book fair was just ending with a scandal namely that farride Publishers could generously claim space there under the banner of freedom of speech um and at the same time black people people of color uh had to endure these uh well space making processes um and uh went through very existential uh feelings um being threatened uh by people who clearly didn't want them to be there uh and Miran uh uh outlined this contradiction that while this prize was given to a black woman from Zimbabwe at the same time the city um and you know the authorities who who let the book fair made space for these elements um few would take such a courage watch the video and live through it and see whether you could do the same I struggled with it uh mirian did it um and um it's probably you know also um if you give it a second thought what everyone should have done the p cirk is one of the most important places for German democracy so claiming space should not be treated as an interruption but actually as an encouragement uh in that space and this is exactly what uh Miran did the struggle Miran engaged with over the years has um often been plastered with obstacles derailing tralization relativizing gaslighting threats of violence and those engaged in anti-racism uh especially those affected by it in harmful ways they know this all too well allyship is a very precondition um to overcome such barriers but allyship cannot be taken for granted um neither from the communities you are fighting for nor from social miluse usually associated with more Progressive stances towards racism such as the uh uh green left liberal circles I just cited and add to this Society at large where the Fight Against Racism has even been retrogressing over the past years um partly owed to the success of farite um uh discourse Pace setting in a way or another that other actors have have and you have an environment that really takes its toll and Miran has courageously navigated this environment taken strength from uh those that uh came before her and those who uh stood beside her and inspiring others mirian Builds on important historical work often sisters unfortunately few Brothers have paved the way for black intersectional politics in Germany uh this is very well documented in the book spel blicker where activists writers and artists reflect on their years of struggles on their Decades of struggles for representation and social justice in Germany and US scholar Tiffany flori has recently published a book on this history for those of you who want to read about the struggle in English also now a German version exists and a keyw work in this genealogy of black uh struggle black political struggle has been the book fa beon stand by your color in translated in English Loosely uh edited in uh 1986 by Maya Yim Dita Okun Toya and dma schz and there's a really uh great quote from this book that I just urge you to read my very existence is a bone of contention in this country but today um my appearance sorry but today people don't stumble over me in my appearance unawares today I am the one who causes offense I want to get the ball rolling so this is translated but wanting to get the ball rolling is exactly what myrian stands for asking uncomfortable questions disrupting the status quo claiming space engaging in necessary trouble uh this is a term you will reencounter in a few minutes living intersectional anti-racism and feminism as a practice um I think you also have been thoroughly inspired by women in your own family such as your own mother despite sometimes diverging generational takes on the issues of racism in white majority countries and um Miran Auto biographical first book Isa speaks to this again I encourage everyone to engage with it and I would say it's a global relational book it connects biographies and struggles across continents um and here at the Institute of African studies during my tenure as a steering committee member and now as a co-director together with my colleague Gabriel summer um we have decided to give such topics uh more space uh we need to tackle doorstep issues in the global entanglements and as mirian will tell you in a minute she also has been very active in the Frankfurt Parliament to help Ben racist imagery and words in the cityscape uh this connects her struggle to what goes on in other cities right now about 10 German cities ities have uh in a way bended so there variations of banning uh the m and the nword in their cityscape which doesn't mean they just disappear but at least it's a stance and we have such legacies at our doorstep from a restaurant and place that is called Cameroon nearby to a rock called zansi bar about 40 kilometers somewhere in a forest uh to organizations and companies who have decided to use racial slurs and images to garnish their products and garments there is a colonial Imperial entanglement of the region and byro needs to face it and I think uh we have made some progress here but sometimes I wish we would have a Miran in the city Parliament uh only to be reminded the work lies with us not with her she has already been doing enough at the same time with the rise of the far right and other political actors and media people succumbing to their discursive strategies it's really even more important not to lose hope but to develop a defiant position and to be ready to fight for an inclusive Society uh and I think you represent this Miran um broad allyship is needed here and uh uh it it works best with an intersectional take and this is exactly what you're talking um about uh today so I welcome you to your talk intersectionality is living practice uh Beyond labels and boundaries thank you Miriam test test test okay hi everyone thank you so much for having me and thank you for this very very warm introduction speech Stefan I am I'm truly touched um I feel seen dear guests dear colleagues it is an honor to stand before you today and discuss a topic that is so dear to my my heart and that weaves through my whole life as Stefan just um beautifully put intersectionality as a living [Music] practice at a time when nationalists and discriminatory ideologies are sipping into mainstream discourse it is imperative that we challenge ourselves as individuals as cultural practitioners as a society to confront the forces with Clarity and with purpose when I arrived in Germany in 1998 my grandparents Ruth and Rina may they rest in peace were determined to make me the best integrated and whitest black person in the country they dragged me from Opera and classical theater Productions to the next introducing me to GTA to Shila and the other great poets and thinkers of Germany my teacher eventually um had to explain to them that the broken jug by Hinrich kist and the Budden Brooks by Thomas man were not exactly appropriate reading material for a fifth grader and then there were the museums so many museums the blur together in my memory because there were simply too many once I asked my grandmother why we needed to put all these stuff in museum she told me museums show us where we come from who we are and where we are going oops sorry back then I didn't fully understand today I don't think that I understand and take from that sentence she told me so many years ago what she meant by back then may she rest in peace once again but still I would say that sentence is true where where we come from where we are and where we are going today in my work I do my mom often asks me especially after reading another article or seeing me debate on TV and losing my cool with a mix of cuor uh curiosity and concern why do you make your life harder my child why are you always arguing with white people true she's a cameroonian woman who came to Germany at the age of 23 pregnant and with two small children without speaking the language and knowing the culture she did not come to this country to fight any battles she came to live for herself for her kids for her survival was resistance enough when I try to explain my work to her she listens with love and disbelief as though she cannot fathom why anyone would voluntarily wade into the challenges of discussing racism and privilege yet in many ways it is her journey and her resilience that inspire me to do this work her story reminds me of the sacrifices made by so many who came before for us of the responsibility we have to push boundaries for those who will come after us when I talk to my father about what I do my work as a consultant for diversity development at the Performing Arts my father a white man who at the age of 20 had rebelled against his Suburban middle class upbringing his mother a Pianist his father a notary and his older sister a lawy by leaving Germany to work in Africa he looks at me proudly but confused I explain my job again I tell him making discrimination visible and dismantling it to pave the way for genuine diversity his Rebellion once fueled by a mix of boredom and Defiance had culminated in his return to Germany with a pregnant African wife a son and me his adoptive black daughter as a vivid symbol of the life he had chosen to create beyond the conventional path laid out for him ah he said nod nodding still not entirely sure what it entailed and wondering if my critiques might include him and perhaps they do we often speak of diversity as an abstract ideal forgetting that it requires concrete action and and more importantly the courage to address its counterpart discrimination diversity and discrimination are two sides of the same coin one cannot exist without the other being confronted the foundational idea has shaped my work in cultural spaces which are by Design SES of immense power German cultural and academical institutions are often celebrated as pillars of enlight M and creativity openness yet they are not immune to the very systems of exclusion and privilege it and power they claim to critique most cultural spaces in Germany remain what I call White spaces not just in terms of the people who lead them but also in the stories they tell the Aesthetics they champion in the audiences they Envision dominance whether through race gender or class defines the architecture of these spaces so when discussing these imbalances we must also speak of privileges a word that often triggers resistance and we must also speak of violence and oppression because again they are two sides of the same coin the culture that Germany takes such pride in is deeply shaped by violence against others our glittering museums which we view as pillars of Education are bursting with looted artifacts stained with blood the zoos we send school children to every day in the name of preservation and care for animals are relics of colonial times times that Drew no distinction between black people people of color and the animals they care so much for both torn from their families from their natural environment and cage for someone else's entertainment and the literature of Germany's so-called poets and thinkers is riddled with one-dimensional portrayals of women and the so-called others if they appear at all recognizing privilege is not about guilt it is about responsibility allow me to intro uh to illustrate this with an example from my work as an elected official as Stefan Uma just said when I entered the Frankfurt city council as it's only visible black women we are two but today is not the time and the place to talk about colorism and wi passing so please bear with me I was immediately confronted with racism and sexism and I mean the '90s kind the ah why don't you have a park ticket well I'm sorry we didn't assume you had a car that kind of racism despite this my focus was and remains Arts and Cultural politics but as I began addressing the intersecting forms of discrimination which I was experiencing people told me to relax we never had issues with racism before you arrived have you ever thought it might be you yes it is this sentiment reflects a broader so a broader societal tendency to silence those who disrupt the status quo it is often emphasized that I must remain calm and professional and even rational when discussing racism one could argue that I can be emotional and right at the same time but I digress imagine I assume the majority of white people couldn't remain neutral and composed while discussing sunburn I cannot fathom what it feels like to return home after a day at the beach with blistering red skin and skin peeling off your shoulders but these are not my experiences and yet I would find it only natural to offer sunscreen on a sunny day of frozen peas from for relief after sunburn not because I enjoy the sensation of greasy hands or because I happen to have left over peace from my freezer but because I am IR rational and empathetic being I do not need to experience sunburn myself to show compassion for those who do but I digress yet as John Lewis the great civil leader once said never ever be afraid to make some noise and get into good trouble necessary trouble so I did intersectionality a term coined by Kimberly crenchaw in 1989 provides a framework for making this necessary trouble it allows us to examine overlapping systems of Oppression racism sexism ableism and others interact to marginalize individuals and communities this concept is not merely theoretically for me and it shouldn't be for any any of us it is a lived reality and a practical tool for change it informs my activism my cultural work and everything in my writing one of the most challenging and transformative moments in my activism as a politician was when I introduced a motion to ban the use of the nword and the MW in frankfurt's institutions in public institutions and Frankfurt schools the resistance I faced was immense I remember wanting to give up more than once overwhelmed by the hostility and the dismissive arguments that lab my efforts as overly sensitive or unnecessary but I persevered knowing that this was about more than just a word I was about it was about creating a baseline of dignity and respect so that people like my mother would not have to debate their Humanity with white people after six months in countless heated debates particularly with members of the fdp the most motion passed even though in a somewhat diluted form today the nword is no longer accepted in Frankfurt schools or official buildings and I do not believe that this means to fight for racism is over far from it I am under No Illusion that a single policy can undo hundreds of years of systemic oppression don't get me wrong but what this Victory represents is a refusal to keep having the same conversations over and over and over it is a step towards ensuring that the Dignity of marginalized communities is not up for debate when the motion was finally brought to a vote I delivered a speech to the Parliament that encapsulated my beliefs in translating intersectionality theory into Political practice I went on to highlight that structural racism is not visible as a hate crime or slur shouted in the streets it is polite it is rational and often hidden behind claims of traditions or bureaucracy it wears ties it wears high heels it speaks calmly structural racism is it tells us that banning a word doesn't change anything in your life therefore is it it is not worth the effort but I argue that this very rationality is what makes structural racism so Insidious and why we need an intersectional lens when creating policies for diverse societies structural racism the product of dozens hundreds and thousands of people with shared Prejudice that organized themselves into systems of power it is an impenetrable white framework that demands Conformity and silences those who deviate from it I shared my frustration about the double standards I face as a black woman speaking Against Racism how my tone was policed how my anger was dismissed as irrational and how my presence alone was considered disruptive yet I emphasized that my goal was not to create Discord but to demand accountability intersectionality I concluded in that speech is not just an academic concept it is a call to action to recognize the interconnectedness of Oppression and to challenge it wherever it exists whether on the streets in our schools or In This Very Parliament that would be the last time my party let me speak in Parliament for over a year when I wrote my debut novel Isa it was more than a creative Endeavor it was um an act of selfhealing and desperate Act of self-healing the story told from perspectives often sidelined in mainstream literature allowed me to reclaim my own narrative feel the transformative power of Storytelling through writing I experience what it means to empower myself while offering readers a lens into lives that are frequently misunderstood or ignored this is why intersectionality must move Beyond academic discourse it must become a leaving breathing practice that reshapes how we see how we create and how we engage with the world in the cultural sector this means ret thinking representation not only in the characters we see on stage but also in the people who create and sustain cultural Productions who holds the power to tell stories who determines which stories matter too often marginalized communities are invited into these spaces only as performers while decision-making roles remain Out Of Reach This exclusion perpetuates a cycle where diverse bodies are visible but their stories and voices remain unheard my journey as an author began with an insistent need to share my own stories and that those of my ancestors in Isa my debut novel published in Spring 2024 I wo together the lives of five women whose experiences span over a century starting in 1903 in colonial Cameroon these women connected through the threats of colonialism and exploitation and resilience and self-determination reflects the complexity of intergenerational struggles and triumphs at its heart the story explores how trauma and the will to survive are inherited creating a rich tapestry of pain perseverance and ultimately empowerment to me it is a love letter to all black women in this world the protagonist is as a young pregnant woman from Frankfurt who travels to duala Cameroon to take part in centuries old healing rituals her journey becomes a deeply personal confrontation with her family's history a story that intertwines the legacy of her German Colonial side and the power of cultural and fam familiar Traditions it's a fictional Journey it's not completely autobiographical but I did use my experiences of racism and suppression and I also used what I knew about my own Heritage my protagonist and I share a life reality writing this novel was as much an act of Storytelling as it was an act of self-discovery and an act of activism publishing Isa was a transformative milestone for me as a debut author at a tradition German Publishing House hor I found myself navigating a world of privilege and influence that felt both empowering and disorienting for the first time I experienced what it meant to have a predominantly white powerful institution invested in your success it felt good something that I thought only um black people experience in sport or entertainment since the novel release I've had the privilege of holding over 70 readings across diverse spaces schools rural communities Urban centers and even International venues these events provided an invaluable opportunity to engage directly with readers many of them whom were en counting stories about Colonial history and intersectional identity for the very first time it was both inspiring and troubling to see how little many German speaking audiences know about their own Colonial history liter literature particularly contemporary works like Isa have proven to be a vital bridge for initiating these conversations in a country celebrated as Land Of The Poets and thinkers storytelling becomes an act of cultural resistance and education the reception of is has been overwhelmingly positive the Frank Al TI described me as an unflinching yet humorous Storyteller the same the same um news outlet that said ah she lacks neutrality and is always so loud thean lorded the novel for its width ease and emotional depth the same Outlet who criticized me for inter inter venting in the PO here many of the same themes celebrated in my novel racism gender inequality and Colonial legacies are met with resistance when I address them as a politician or an activist this seeming Paradox shows us the unique power of literature to engage audiences in ways that activism sometimes can't storytelling with its ability to evoke empathy and Nuance often succeeds where direct confrontation might fail so choose your trouble one of the most known M moments I had in the public as Stefan a just said was my intervention in The Poets K in Frankfurt where author Titi dangara was honored with the um German Peace Prize at the book while the events park meaningful debate it is also sub it also subjected me to intense criticism including racist and sexist attacks people camped in front of my house threatened my kids others forced me to move this experience reinforced the importance of creating spaces where marginalized voices are not just heard but respected Amplified and protected it also demonstrates the persisting challenges of speaking truth to power even within spaces that claim to Champion diversity and inclusion reflecting on these experiences I see a clear connection between my work as an author and my brother my broader activism both Endeavors are rooted in the principles of intersectionality as a living practice Isa is not just a novel it is a vessel to explore overlapping systems of Oppression colonialism patriarchy racism shape individual lives and Collective histories by we by um by weaving these themes into a compelling narrative I sought to make these complex realities accessible to a wide audience creating a space for dialogue and reflection the act of writing Isa was also deeply personal it it allowed me to reclaim my narrative and to process the complexities of my own identity as a black German woman with cameroonian roots as shim manand GOI adichi famously articulated in her Ted Talk the danger of a single story the stories we tell or fail to tell shape our understanding of the world and each other at adi's Insight resonates profoundly with with my own experience through storytelling we challenge monolithic narratives and invite others to see the world through a different lens the transformative power of literature lies in its ability to bridge dividers Foster empathy and illuminate Hidden Truths in my readings I've encountered young people who for the first time saw their own experiences refle Ed in a work of fiction I've also met individuals who admitted that Isa challenged their assumptions or expanded their understanding of colonial history and its ongoing impact these moments reaffirm the importance of creating spaces for diverse voices in literature and culture however the Journey of publishing Isa also revealed systemic challenges within the literature field and I wouldn't be me if I wouldn't Point them out from discussions about the books cover to marketing strategies I often found myself navigating cultural and racial dynamics that highlighted the industry's blind spots for example the initial designs for the cover leaned heavily on stereotypical um exoticizing pictures from Africa Africa it took multiple rounds of feedback to arrive at a design that honored the story's complexity without resorting to cliches this process was a reminder that even within Progressive spaces the work of dismantling biases is ongoing what I want to emphasize is that literature is not merely an artistic Pursuit it is a tool for social change through Isa and the conversations it had sparked I've witnessed how storytelling can transform individual perspectives and Collective Consciousness it is my hope that by sharing these stories both on page and through my activism I can contribute to a broader movement for justice and Equity intersectionality in practice means recognizing the interconnectedness of our struggles and the shared Humanity that binds us whether through literature activism or politics we have the power to rewrite the narratives that have excluded so many for so long let us continue doing that challenging the status quo and building a more inclusive future one story at a time but let us not mistake visibility for inclusion true representation is not about tokenism it is about empowering individuals to tell their own stories I use the picture of the German Parliament because a representative democracy should represent its people and the German Parliament doesn't do that true representation is about empowering individuals to tell their own stories free from constraint of dominant narratives this requires us to address structural barriers from hiring practices to funding allocations and to actively dismantle the hierarchies that DCT dictate who belongs and who does not the UN decade for people of African descent now in its second phase serves as a timely reminder of the global scope of these challenges it calls on us to recognize the contributions of African descendants while addressing the systemic um the systemic injustices they face in Germany right now this mandate feels particularly urgent from Colonial legacies to contemporary forms of exclusion the experiences of black communities highlight the gaps between our ideals of equality and the realities of exclusion as we work towards greater Equity we must also Embrace discomfort challenging deeply ingrained systems of privilege and discrimination is not easy nor should it be discomfort is a necessary Catalyst for growth it compels us to question our assumptions it compels us to engage in difficult conversations and reimagine the spaces we inhabit it brings me back to the idea of necessary trouble making cultural spaces truly inclusive requires us to disrupt the way things have always been done it demands that we listen to marginalized voices not as an after thought or when the storm on Twitter arrives but as a guidance as a guiding principle from the very beginning it requires a shift from performative allyship to genuine collaboration where power is shared and all perspectives are valued to ground this idea in history let us consider the work of precolonial African feminist traditions and the extraordinary women who embodied them one such figure is f La ransum of Nigeria often referred to as mother of Africa she was born in the 1900 she was a prominent anti- Colonial activist and leader in the fight against British imperialism she organized women through the Abu cuta women's Union one of Africa's most significant women-led resistant movements the union fought against unfair taxation Colonial exploitation and the marginalization of women in Nigerian Society ransum miku's efforts were not merely about gaining political recognition they were about reclaiming dignity there it is again dignity and agency for Nigerian women her leadership was deeply rooted in G in the gender B balance structure of many pre-colonial African societies where women played Central roles as Traders as spiritual leaders and political figures for example in the euroba culture women often held significant economic power and governed markets which were the lifebo of their communities this balance of power between genders was systematically eroded by Colonial structures which imposed patriarchal norms and diminished the roles of women African feminism or as I like to call it pre Colonial feminism reminds us that colonialism was a child of patriarchy just as capitalism spawned its many offspring sexism racism ableism anti-Semitism and Cobia and yet thanks to the work of so many people some maybe even present here today we know that feminism is far from a western invention women from the global South have been practicing it long before the term existed embodying principles of equality of justice and Community resilience that continue to inspire us today as I conclude I want to leave you with this thought intersectionality is not a checklist on a box to tick it is a way of seeing the world a commitment to Justice and practical empowerment whether on a stage in a novel or policy debate it challenges us to recognize and celebrate the complexity of human experience it calls on us to rewrite the narrative that have excluded so many for so long so let us Make Some Noise let us embrace the discomfort of change and let us work together to create spaces where everyone can belong not just in theory but in practice I want to conclude by honoring the women whose shoulders I stand on women who have paved the way in activism politics and Academia inspiring generations to fight for justice and Equity some as you can see are still living because I think we often lack to give all these Role Models their flowers while they're still with us and I would like you to take a minute and look at each single phase and maybe um try and research the names you don't know yet this list is my personal list and of course it is not exhaustive but represents my selection of women whose work has deeply inspired me their contributions remind us that the fight for justice and Equity is global multifaceted and deeply rooted in the resilience of those who came before us thank you very much so here is [Applause] thank you very much uh mar mar for this uh edifying and thought provoking uh lecture which very much resonate uh what we do here in Africa multiple uh clust of Excellence uh trying to reconfigure uh African studies uh not to spoil the originality of the argument and the ense of the lecture will not uh try to summarize but uh try to raise few questions and then uh we'll open up the floor for discussion and further reflection uh intersectionality as a living uh practice serve as a catalyst for rethinking uh academic knowledge uh practices and the methodologies of a scholarships that uh rely uh employed uh this is particularly pertinent uh in the epoch of our time when a new liberal Market driven values and the quantification of quality uh predominate in the realm of knowledge uh production in such a Time intellectual representation often uh serve uh to uphold the prevailing sociopolitical and cultural norm rather than challenging them uh resulting in a disconnection from the present issues that afflect the marginalized societies communities uh or groups uh M man when you uh adopt feminist intersectional perspective in your work uh and assume multiple Road uh politician uh activist uh play right author uh and cultural uh practitioner in what you call cultural spaces uh to challenge the dominant power struction and discriminatory ideologies making uh necessary trouble what kind of obstacle do you often uh encounter on your path and how do you overcome uh those uh obstacles reflecting also on your own experien uh of for German uh families uh parliamentarian uh how do you see identity politics and cultural diversity uh in Democratic processes uh highlighting inter uh intersectional approaches that question uh uh levels and categories uh how do theories align will uh or deviate from actual uh practices I would also be interested to learn more about your thought on the relationship between uh diversity and discrimination violence and operation democracy and representation uh could you please unpack this uh relationship between these different terminologies uh and explain how each of these uh binaries uh constitute uh what you call two sides of the same coin uh as you uh refer to in your lecture uh perhaps you respond to some of this question and then we'll open up for uh discussion thank you not sure if the mic or let me okay so I will try um I'm not sure if I remember all the questions um the challenge is well I told you I had to move um I think I would like to differentiate between my like the political space and the private space um speaking on the political space I would say that no matter how hard um it might seem or the things I said that I encountered in my work I think it is still sadly the best time in history for me as a black woman in Europe so I guess that's a bonus as a private person um I will share with you all that I will not be running for reelection because um my health and um my personal life has been impacted in a way that I would have never imagined and I think with 35 I am too young to um be stressed all the time so I won't be running for reelection meaning I will be taking a step back from parliamentary activism as I call it but continue my work as I have always been doing it um and still as I said we always have to not only look um at those who came before us but the people who will come after us and so what I do now is try and Mentor young leaders people who really want and be transparent about the structures and all the unwritten rules in our Parliament that create the exclusion that make us think like if you hear politician German politician you usually wouldn't picture someone like like me you would picture an old white man in a suit and I'm trying to dismantle these Prejudice and empowering other young people to enter these spaces is what I will keep doing because I think um recognizing your own privileged as a marginalized person is part of intersectionality and is to me one of the most empowering parts of intersectionality knowing that even though I might have to kick the door down to enter the room I will make sure to keep a foot in the door that it never closes again and to let as many others come after me as possible um saying this in this January that feels like 2 years looking at the political discourse and did I forget like what was can you help me what was the other question the primary question oh yeah yeah well I think that's easy though um the relationship between or why I always like to use the term of the two coins is that um diversity is a word that everybody uses and everybody loves I've even seen certain right extremist parties talk about diversity diversity makes us feel good um and it um and we try to avoid looking at the other side and I think if um we ever encounter certain words that used to be um that people used to maybe um resist being used in mainstream it should always give us a moment to pause and think about it diversity is being used Without Really the deeper meaning of it and that's why I stopped using it and I started using anti-discrimination um and I I think we wouldn't be talking about diversity if there wasn't discrimination the green party wouldn't have to um focus and and always stress how diverse they were if there wasn't discrimination let me keep it like that thank you very much once again so we open the floor for questions comments please introduce yourself before I proceed to ask your question is this a good or a bad thing hi um my name is buja and thank you so much for your lecture it really is empowering to see that and also like I'm doing my PhD right now and it's obviously like has a lot to do with k colonialism Colonial violence Etc but seeing that it can be empowering to understand the past but also give something to the Next Generation so I don't have a question just saying thank you so much for coming thank you for saying that more questions comments there's one there yeah he please 10 thank thank you very much for the wonderful lecture my name is Daniel I'm a an international fellow at the cluster from Kenya uh you have talked about the need to practice intersectionality and uh this has made me thinking about some work I'm doing somewhere with other colleagues on Zeno othering Zeno othering that means othering other I mean uh creating identities of others based on yeah so given that from your experience and uh given that most of our actions are first conceptualized as thoughts and then we translate those thoughts sometimes into words first and then into actions if we were to practice intersectionality as you have advocated for uh don't you think the starting point should be a linguistic reengineering I'm talking here about uh things like Shas faren yeah things like what excuse me or okay she was forign or or black market I I can give many blacks yeah but so a linguistic don't you think that we need to the starting point would be a linguistic engineering because if the language was neutral and not discriminatory then probably our thoughts and our actions and our world view yeah yeah thank you I think I understood um thanks for the question and um I think I can connect this to what I said about um the first bill I introduced with Banning these words um of course I know that just by saying this words should be banned doesn't really change something but I think that not more using them is an action plus it doesn't cost us a scent um and I argue that banning certain words um in an official capacity costs less than the flowers we put down on um every 19th of Hana um when when um this gruesome attack happened and when uh the the flowers we put down when we were uh when we celebrate German democracy and all of that it doesn't really cost us anything and yet I would distance myself from where to start and where to stop because um intersectionality also teaches us that there is so much that happens at the same time and we can walk and chew gum at the same time we can do different things at the same time and I think um yes language is is a very powerful thing it is a powerful tool and it can be used as a weapon um I don't know but I'm also reluctant because I have the feeling that by concentrating on one thing something like the language we miss um the the big picture and the goal and to be honest I have been invited to talk to very high ranking polit politicians about the nword and they told me you invited and I know other Scholars and anti-racist activists who are then invited to talk to Stein meire or to talk to schz or some very very important gamium what I always say is if I get an hour with very important politicians in Germany I will not talk about the NW I want to talk about kids that are being like the apartheid of our schools and how our educational system discriminates against the weakest of us I would like to talk about my brothers and sisters drowning in the Mediterranean I would like to talk about the killers of Muhammad kamami who went free and even got promoted I have so much more that I would like to talk about rather than this word not saying that it's not important I say that we should always keep in mind that one of the most powerful things about discrimination is that it loves to deflect it loves to um distract distract us from what it's really about and the bigger picture and the bigger goal is dignity for all and you can call me what ever you want what I want is the right to sue you the same way you can sue me if I call you an and I think we should make sure that it's really not about individuals and we shouldn't um mix up with structures right at one point structures are made of single individuals who might be but we shouldn't concentrate on them if you get my point and that's what I would say about um language but maybe another um just one more point when writing Isa the first thing I told my editor was that my biggest challenge would be to write this novel of 300 Pages without using all these words I refused to use the words colonialism feminism racism intersectionality patriarch all these words because I realized after a while that these words that were given to me as tools and weapons and that I would like to picture as a CK for a broken leg to help you walk that they turned into a barrier sometimes because um words also enable us to not really talk what it's about we talk about democracy what does it mean Germany is a democracy but if 10 million people the size of Austria can't vote who live in this country is it really really Democrat Democratic right so um yeah let's not all let's not get distracted we can do many things at the same time but I do think we need to prioritize sometimes please I had hi I had a question about the novel Isa and the research that went into that because you mentioned that it wasn't completely like personal experiences so what were some of the things you drew on to tell stories about how women would have experienced um the colonial era say a century ago like what information did you draw on and just more on that process yeah um the thing that inspired me to write the book happened years and years ago I have I had never really pictured myself as an author and definitely not as an author of fiction at first um but through my activism that was always addressed towards discrimination um and especially anti-black racism in Germany that when I stting my journey wasn't a thing nobody spoke about it right you could you would be happy if people even spoke about racism so what I did was um spend a lot of time in archives and in the basements of our museums and zoos and the good thing about Germany and I'm very happy about is our bureaucracy so we make sure to write everything down and so there are very very detailed records of German colonialism um and seeping through these records where you had a list a shopping list of a museum sent just like I would write a shopping list for my daughter to go to re they would write a shopping list for for certain I don't I I don't even want to say what was on that list to collect and then you had all these letters and exchanges between um colon colonizers that were down in Africa with the German government or with with newspaper outlets and so on and they were sometimes deeply disturbing and I would like to trigger warning quote one postcard I stumbled upon I think it must have been something between 2016 and 2018 and in it was a postcard of a German soldier in Cameroon writing to his mom m good so he was just talking about killing cameroonians and he was talking about being in love at the same time and then he started describing this woman to his mom who he said was unnaturally intelligent and you know reading this and searching for for facts and numbers to write a bill maybe or to to um write a speech or to you know for something you know we always need facts these images always stayed in my head and I I couldn't stop but think of what that woman might have felt when this this guy who killed her family assumed she might in her Wildest Dreams find him attractive and that's always what's missing the female perspective um so there were many of these little little anecdotes this footnotes this nameless women that I thought wait if you ended up in the bundus asiv Hamburg your name is written on a piece of paper you must have been phenomenal in some way and my goal was then to make sure to always take these women out of the footnotes and after a while this story started foaming in my head because even if we have literature about colonialism we speak about all these Male Freedom Fighters and all these Chiefs and then I mean in Germany now we know the name of Rudolf Dua mang Gabel but we don't know the name of the women that Stood Beside him behind him and enabled him to be the person he he W he was that we can um remember his name today so um at some point always um remembering the stories of my grandmother and my great-grandmother and what they told us my great-grandmother was a light-skinned woman and I remember as a child I always knew knew she looked different and she had these um light eyes and the family never really spoke about it everyone knew she didn't have a father but it was so obvious that who her father was and that she was an act of violence right and there were the stories about um other women these Legends the names of the women that were told that um they became Legends because people spoke about um them having these babies that look different and so on and comparing these stories that I heard from my great-grandmother and all these aunties with this um notes I found in the bundas asie the story started forming and after a while it just became this whole story in my head and I thought it's the time to harvest this women and make sure that they will never be forgotten again and give them the Dig to back to back so that's what I tried with the noble so we take last one or two questions yes please well thank you so much only thank you so much for your very inspiring speech um and your eye openening um ideas you spoke about about I really like the idea of intersectionality as a living practice and I really want to um read you you made me want to read your novel Isa I have um kind of a different question You' have mentioned it racism and discrimination happens every day and often times we don't even realize that there is racism and um discrimination even here at University what would you recommend us how to spread the spirit this idea of intersection and intersectionality maybe only in in a step-wise approach or how should we multiply um your thoughts your ideas to to um yes of course um I wish I could give it in one answer but you know to be honest I pay my rent by by telling people how they can live intersectional and I think the time won't be enough but I would like like to say this I think every individual when being in a space and sitting in a room at a table talking about things and making decisions should try and train their eyes on not always seeing what is there but seeing what is not there who is missing in the room and I think that's the first step and talking as a black women I went asked to talk to certain topics that I know I have an expertise with if I see that a person um a queer person a visibly queer person would be better suited for that position I should actually make space and I think that um many people in power are so used to having everything belonging to them and not ask asking if things really belong to them or not because it's always been that way that sometimes we assume that we own things that we don't own and that maybe belong to other people and if we start seeing spaces in that way and trying to train ourselves and it's I think it's something you can do it's like jogging you get better at it the more you do it training your eyes if um if I have a reading um for my book I look at the venue and I ask myself it's if it's wheelchair accessible it doesn't I don't need a wheelchair but I think that it should be important and I think you can start with one thing and then broaden yourself and you will get um your life will get more stressful and you will be sad more often than now maybe but at the end it helps to voice the voiceless and the voiceless are usually the people that aren't in the room with you thank you it's the attitude we should all learn and one last question another last question last question there the young lady yes pleas please uh thank you so much I'm thinking about because you're dressing a room full of academics and you're saying that we should take this Beyond academic theorization so I'm asking myself and possibly asking you perhaps to reflect on the practical ways that we can move intersectionality Beyond academic theorization and I ask this because the institutions that we find ourselves in tend to sort of remain on Bend uh for example we receive Western Funding conduct research in Africa write about African lives and then defend this in a closed session without necessarily incorporating this actess even if as a way to acknowledge or I mean as a way to give back or acknowledge their part in co-producing that knowledge so what practical ways how can we really make this work I believe this is probably the sixth year that we've been talking about reconfiguring African studies can you can you um repeat the last sentence I didn't get it uh which one no no I just the the sound it was just a I didn't get the um uh I think I was talking about how we can give back or acknowledge the people who are part of co-producing the knowledge that we then defend in closed sessions and exclude and I'm saying that also acknowledging that this is perhaps more than or probably the sixth or fifth year since we as an institution have been talking about reconfiguring African studies so perhaps for us it's also an inward look to what that reconfiguration has really amounted to in this number of years mhm um yeah I wouldn't know to be honest it's a working progress um personally I love transparency and if you don't make me sign a piece of paper I will talk about it so um I think we should we should remember that the Nar Narrative of what oppression and violence is and that those definitions are also coined by the haveit alls and the powerful and I think we can um something that helps is transparency so avoiding closed door meeting decisions trying to get as much openness and as much public insight into certain processes and I know institutions don't like these processes but they don't like them for a reason it's about conserving the status quo if we don't talk about what is happening behind closed doors many people don't know about what's happening closed doors and um I don't think there is a one siiz fits all but if you manage to gather on the one hand allies and people that are likeminded and you manage to create a network of others to gain strength in power uh in numbers and then work towards fighting for more transparency you could be surprised how many people think the way you do and um I think you could be surprised in what actions can be taken and how we can actually manage to relocate resources into topics that are there to our heart and how we can also try better practices that are starting to um pop up all over the world also in academic um contexts I hope that helped a little bit maybe okay good thank you very much thank you once again please give it up please thank you um thank you p and um thank you Milan man you've given us plenty food for thought and not only that you've given us an agenda for action and we are coming to an end of this part of today's event it will be followed by a reception but I ask you not to leave the room right now because there's something coming in the interim so please bear with us for a moment um I will ask suzan mizen and Christina Shera to the stage and in the meantime I would like to thank you once more yeah and ask you to come for AO and [Applause] Chase thanks a lot uh here he goes still uh Susanna you are here y okay well okay well thank you very much from me as well Mar and man was a wonderful lecture and I look forward to reading your book I know that this was a lot of food for thought and you're hungry now for uh and waiting for the buffet to follow but we have one last pleasurable task and that is has something to do with also the empowerment of young scholars and it's my pleasure to honor four special people and also their collaborators who have contributed tremendously to making the cluster Africa multiple excellent um so can I ask also Sarah DEA Kai Coden Brock Andra Mark and yosa Phillips to me well to join me on the stage and actually Christina should be here as well because when I don't know what to look that um [Applause] so okay why are we together on the stage now I'm uh at the moment Vice dean of early career an equal opportunity and uh it was one of the structural objectives of the cluster to create new Pathways uh to academic careers as we know the post-doctoral phase is a bottleneck in the career of uh academic especially in the German University system so to pursue this goal the cluster established um four independent Junior research groups which stand as one of the pillars of the cluster's early career support strategy and actually one of the predefined denominations here was also intersectionality so this ties in also very well with uh what we've heard today so each of the Clusters Junior research groups consists of three members one postdoctoral scholar a group leader and two doctoral students recruited and supervised by the post doctoral group leader to work on a joint project for a 4-year funding period that was that there and that was what was then uh applied for in uh 2020 so you Dr DEA I'm talking in alphabetical order so not uh Professor Coden Brock uh Dr Mark T and Dr Philip us selected as Junior research group leaders in a highly competitive process out of 41 more than 40 applications so all of you started your Junior research groups in 2021 and have excelled in your different fields now you as a group uh as and also as an individual uh I would like to honor your work um or the work of the groups which is now like three and a half to four years on its way it's not finished yet so this is not an um a farewell uh uh hon ration so I would like to also honor your individual achievements and um I would like to start with Dr debella Saro debella who is the leader of the junior research group sexualities political orders and revolution in Africa so your research stands out for its unique integration of interdisciplinary methodologies intersectional approaches and epistemologies of the global South you offer indepth analytically compelling insights into the lived experiences of non-normative genders and sexualities navigating a contested and ethically ethically challenged field with impressive skills Dr debella research Bridges diverse academic disciplines and theoretical perspectives creating Innovative cross-disciplinary connections by also incorporating non-western Concepts and theories she challenges simplistic North South or Africa Europe comparisons instead she also brings in questions of religion ethics and decolonial thought into feminist and inter discourse this enriches conventional perspectives and also broadens the relevance of the work across the humanities and social sciences her work not only enhances academic understanding but also challenges traditional boundaries making a significant impact both in Africa and globally a key aspect of her approach is her engagement with local audiences in ethopia where she disseminates her findings in both Amharic and English broadening the reach of her work Dr Della's ability to move between the disciplines forging New Paths rather than adhering to establish one distinguishes her as a groundbreaking scholar so this is to acknowledge your work in this forum right now uh I will continue thank you very much I think I will continue and then maybe you also want to share a few words or should we do it like one by one yeah we haven't really attested that okay I'll continue now and then you can think about what maybe you want to say I will continue again in alphabetical order with Professor Kai Coden Brock uh who leader of the junior research group the political economy of monetary and economic sovereignty in West Africa compared uh Professor Coden Brock's highly acknowledged Research into how financial and monetary systems shape economic policies in West African nation states and the cfa's Lo offers original perspectives his work stands out for its focus on the often overlooked intersection of international relations and political economy shedding light on how Colonial legacies continue to influence Financial policies and institutions this unique angle not only fills a significant Gap in political science but also offers fresh insights into the enduring effects of colonialism on economic systems and the global South his research tackles the complexities of financial systems and their impact on economic policy offering a much needed critical lens on the colonial roots that still shape financial institutions today this makes his work highly relevant in today's discussions about global economic structures and their historical foundations Ken's contributions to this field of a political economy are already having a measurable impact both nationally and internationally and his critical approaches which challenge conventional thinking are poised to become highly influential also in the future so this is jward thank you and uh okay I'll continue with Dr Cassandra Mark T leader of the group Junior research group African knowledges and the history publication her work is uh or she is rapidly emerging as a true Trailblazer in African history capturing widespread attention across Africa Europe and the United States Cassandra marti's interdisciplinary expertise spans global history public history in the digital realm and economic history and what truly sets her apart is her deep integration into a vibrant scholarly Community where her Innovative contributions to digital history and media archives are Making Waves her pioneering work on African media history is not only reshaping the field but also setting the stage for exciting new trends and perspectives Dr Mark's research brings profound depths to vital discussions on Global Knowledge production decolonization and African history she skillfully grounds these conversations in Rich historical context moving beyond simple historicist conclusions to offer fresh thought-provoking insights a key aspect of her work is the integration of African diasporic perspectives enriching her research and offering a more inclusive view of African history Beyond her academic achievement uh Dr Mar's impact extends also to Civil Society where her work has proven transformative her dedication to bridging Academia with real world applications underscores her commitment to social change with her groundbreaking scholarship and far-reaching influence Dr Mar is undoubtedly a rising star whose contributions will continue to shape the future of African history and Beyond so okay and last in the alphabetical order but not least of course we come to Dr yoska Phillips leader of the junior research group politics of the unknown so Dr Phillip's work in sociology is nothing short of groundbreaking making highly Innovative contribution to the sociology of knowledge and offering a fresh exciting approach to the study of Youth by using youth as a lens to explore positionalities in the context of uncertainty he shines a light on how young people navigate societal crisis an area that is both timely and crucial his research tackles a central sociological question how is social cohesion and Order produced maintained or at times dismantled Dr Phillips exploration of this topic goes beyond Africa offering insights that resonate with a broader field of Sociology what in addition also sets uh Dr Phillips apart is his impactful work on insecurity where has also played a role in the de development of a theme for the renewal application in uh the Africa multiple cluster of EX Excellence this accomplishment highlights his ability to tackle complex issues with depth and originality the committee now which is part of uh the early career uh we also recognize Dr Phillips as an emerging scholar who is destined for even greater achievements in both sociology and African studies your unique insights and and forward thinkinking approach make you a higher high flyer poised to make a lasting transformative contribution to the field of our years to come Dr Phillips is undoubtedly on the path to becoming also a leading voice in sociology with an influence that will continue to expand and shape academic discourse thank you so let me just say your projects have not come to an end yet uh and we're excited to see uh a continuation of the work until the end of the first cluster phase um but this is now the opportunity to appreciate you also as a group and this also should include your doctoral students and collaborators and also acknowledge your work and and your achievement individually so thank you for your invaluable contribution to the cluster [Music] [Applause] BL it no we eat my yeah well like you put back some black and good so we are now waiting for UT fendler to conclude the session OT what does work does this work uh Don't Be Afraid will be very short because the I mean we already had the fun part uh talking about the transition to the Future unfortunately I'm the one who has to close and also to have I mean to invite you to have a short look back to uh back to the past but as we all know it's all very much related to each other as this is the last New Year lecture of the first funding phase of the cluster we would also like to thank uh some of the persons the vice um who really contributed also to building the structures from the very beginning to make all this work over the six years and seven years uh possible so very shortly and then I mean I I think maybe the persons I will mention are might not even be here this is then who you say if you try to make surprise things this doesn't really work but okay I want to mention it anyway I would like to start with uh Martina dresa who was the first vice dean of early career uh in the cluster and she had a very difficult task to do the transition between mixers that already existed beforehand to bring it into the cluster which was a enormous workload and I think they really managed to do so I think everybody also the PhD students had to contribute and it was a very difficult time of transition but as you can see it worked very well um she's not here today as think she had her own conference so you see because I brought also some presents I will hand them over all the presents were linked to more free time after the class of period I mean at least about after the official um Parts you um they have been playing this after martinaa I would like to thank also Andrea Barons who came after Martina drer who introduced a lot of new working formance in the in bigas I think this also contributed to to shape um the work with txas for another two years she moved in the meantime to liik but also contributed I think largely to uh shaping really the work in in pixas um if we move then to the vice of uh research the first vice te of research was at muta Alba and I think she also had to do a lot of work um because the byro Academy of advanced African studies already existed before the cluster so the cluster already also built on all these structures that already existed beforehand but to create the academy in in I mean for the cluster creating the fellowship programs um that also contribute to building large Resorts around the globe um after UT Alba um left the I mean left the position as the vice teen uh of research um sabelo lini came in um and he really also brought in a a lot of um new folai uh in De Colonial studies uh with a lot of lecture Series so also shaped the um the research um structure considerably over the two years uh so and then finally I think he's the only person who is here tonight so you have to to take all of it Z samimi who was the vice until last December um of a digital research environment I think this was also particularly difficult task because we had I mean we had a lot of Visions nobody really knew how really to put this into work it also had to be connected them with the four accs on the continent in very different um contexts um so I would like to thank on the name of the cluster all of these Vice have contributed and I would even say sacrificed a lot of their personal time um over the last year uh last couple of years and they all are now obviously um enjoying their time somewhere else with other things so maybe you can come quickly have small present because you already get at least [Music] two and maybe the others were following online okay you will wonder what it is I know that he loves bike I mean riding the bike a lot but there's a small bike to open oh beer bottles so enjoy your free time so thank you very much now we can raise our glasses outside thanks again also for the wonderful talk as a person from the I would subscribe to everything they will know okay yeah okay

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